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C20: Wonder, Seeker, Keeper?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    This is true for C20. Although, I'll admit, half the fun I had with Second Edition was coming up with ways to fill the gaps. But yeah, I've done that now, so I'd like a V20 that works off the bat.

    I played Scion, that killed my "forge a game into playabliity" That and there's so many more options now. Plus I'd rather see more kiths, arts etc than "Here's the 35th attempt to make Banality work.."

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lian View Post


      I played Scion, that killed my "forge a game into playabliity" That and there's so many more options now. Plus I'd rather see more kiths, arts etc than "Here's the 35th attempt to make Banality work.."
      Word.

      Plus, there can never be enough kiths for me!

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      • #48
        Clearly English is not my first language, so I may have been misunderstood. I wasn't saying that you cannot play CtD the way you have more fun, you can do whatever you want, my first sentence was just suggesting another game that has more rules and options to this theme and mood, so you can have MORE fun with that. You can also be an epic character (or just a little stronger/smarter/etc) in a WoD game, you don't even need to change the rules, just ask for more freebie points at your character creation and voilá: you can have a strong willed and resistant troll or anything you want.
        My only point here is: you can ALSO have fun with all those things as they were presented in the books. I can understand that your players don't see the Seemings as something organic or part of the core concepts of this game, ok, so I am just suggesting that you can make them more involved with the world presented. It worked very well in my games, I am a CtD storyteller since 1998 and after some experiences, I learned how to make my players involved in this world and since then never, EVER, a player has choosen a Seeming for nothing except to complete the character's concept. I am just trying to help you as I share my experiences and points of view. I've already experienced tons of problems in CtD games, VtM games, etc. I think that C20 will bring a more complete approach of Glamour x Banality and what these things mean, so, I guess this would help the Seemings to be something more complex and maybe more appealing for you and your players.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Neon.Sidhe View Post
          Clearly English is not my first language, so I may have been misunderstood. I wasn't saying that you cannot play CtD the way you have more fun, you can do whatever you want, my first sentence was just suggesting another game that has more rules and options to this theme and mood, so you can have MORE fun with that. You can also be an epic character (or just a little stronger/smarter/etc) in a WoD game, you don't even need to change the rules, just ask for more freebie points at your character creation and voilá: you can have a strong willed and resistant troll or anything you want.
          My only point here is: you can ALSO have fun with all those things as they were presented in the books. I can understand that your players don't see the Seemings as something organic or part of the core concepts of this game, ok, so I am just suggesting that you can make them more involved with the world presented. It worked very well in my games, I am a CtD storyteller since 1998 and after some experiences, I learned how to make my players involved in this world and since then never, EVER, a player has choosen a Seeming for nothing except to complete the character's concept. I am just trying to help you as I share my experiences and points of view. I've already experienced tons of problems in CtD games, VtM games, etc. I think that C20 will bring a more complete approach of Glamour x Banality and what these things mean, so, I guess this would help the Seemings to be something more complex and maybe more appealing for you and your players.

          Asking for more points is changing the rules. The Troll theme is a person who is strong of body and will. A Creature as unbending as the mountains. That is their dream that is their concept. The mechanics in this game use strength and willpower to represent these things. The mechanics are there to represent the character. If I just want to freeform through things I can. I don't need the mechanics at all to tell a collective story, but if I am using rules those rules should be in an aid in directing the situation vs "just throw things out and work with the fluff"

          That is my complaint about Seemings. They don't seem to really do anything. Presumably there should be some difference between the banality 5 childling and the banality 5 Grump.. but there isn't more so the Grump has a much stronger sense of self(represented by willpower). I am not against Seemings perse but I'd like a better point than what is presented. Seeming once you start the game mechanically has few effects, I'd prefer to see it have a continuous effect vs all being frontloaded on Tempers. I'd also prefer kiths not have an obvious best Seeming match up like I hit at with Trolls, a Troll childling completely loses one of his Birthrights, my concept of being the biggest strongest childling is unreallizable, the Pooka or SIdhe, or Sluagh can be just as strong as me! Meanwhile the Sidhe childling is just as glorious as any elder. Yes I can change the rules. I could run stat caps for childlings, but if I need to fix something that proves its a failure.

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          • #50
            Considering the starting character points you are already superior to most of the humanity. I think that Changelings are just a pale reflection of what they once were. IMHO the rules can cover it most of the time.
            So, specifically about the Trolls, I agree with you. They should have made Childlings physically strong in some aspect (not sure an extra dot of Str, but certainly something). Even so, this doesn't invalidate the Seeming concept and how Time spent here corrodes the fae nature.
            I think that instead of ignore something that could be nice and explored during the chronicles, it's better to ask for a more complete approach about Seemings, Aging, Banality and Glamour to these things turn more appealing and organic to your game and everyone not satisfied with the information given until now.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Neon.Sidhe View Post
              Considering the starting character points you are already superior to most of the humanity. I think that Changelings are just a pale reflection of what they once were. IMHO the rules can cover it most of the time.
              Its in comparison to other fae. Should a troll be stronger than a Sluagh? Should a Sidhe be more glorious than a Redcap? Should a pooka be better able to turn into a bear than a Nocker?


              So, specifically about the Trolls, I agree with you. They should have made Childlings physically strong in some aspect (not sure an extra dot of Str, but certainly something). Even so, this doesn't invalidate the Seeming concept and how Time spent here corrodes the fae nature.
              I think that instead of ignore something that could be nice and explored during the chronicles, it's better to ask for a more complete approach about Seemings, Aging, Banality and Glamour to these things turn more appealing and organic to your game and everyone not satisfied with the information given until now.
              I am saying that Seeming currently does nothing but define your Tempers and give you bonuses for certain Kiths. I come back again to the Troll because its the most blatant counter point to the idea that a Fae fades over time, the Grump is the "Most" troll like, its strongest, Its most stubborn, the most suriveable etc. Grumpdom doesn't represent a fading for the Troll but rather fully getting ones birth right.

              Tempers on the other hand can readily be changed in game. a Grump doesn't have it any harder increasing his glamour than anything else. Quests can and do reduce banality. I am not saying this how the game SHOULD be but rather as it is. There needs to be a better way because right now Seeming at best comes off as arbitrary and at worse is counter to any concept of the Fae fading.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Lian View Post

                Its in comparison to other fae. Should a troll be stronger than a Sluagh? Should a Sidhe be more glorious than a Redcap? Should a pooka be better able to turn into a bear than a Nocker?




                I am saying that Seeming currently does nothing but define your Tempers and give you bonuses for certain Kiths. I come back again to the Troll because its the most blatant counter point to the idea that a Fae fades over time, the Grump is the "Most" troll like, its strongest, Its most stubborn, the most suriveable etc. Grumpdom doesn't represent a fading for the Troll but rather fully getting ones birth right.

                Tempers on the other hand can readily be changed in game. a Grump doesn't have it any harder increasing his glamour than anything else. Quests can and do reduce banality. I am not saying this how the game SHOULD be but rather as it is. There needs to be a better way because right now Seeming at best comes off as arbitrary and at worse is counter to any concept of the Fae fading.
                The game has always been about such contradictions. A troll whose birthrights grow stronger even as his Banality also grows is very thematically appropriate.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                  The game has always been about such contradictions. A troll whose birthrights grow stronger even as his Banality also grows is very thematically appropriate.
                  Its not that he goes stronger perse though that reflects the situation its that a Troll is most.. archtypally Troll at Grump. He is the best representation of being a Troll at that level vs having faded from a Fae childling. Now we can say all sorts of things about why this is, but if a theme is the Fading of Fairy nature in the onslaught of years the eldest shouldn't be the MOST archtypal representation of the kith.

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                  • #54
                    Actually I tend to agree with you about the Trolls (partially). I've never thought about them this way. Thanks.
                    But, on the other side, I don't see the same about the other kiths. I insist: the writers should explore more the Seemings, Glamour and Banality (and I think they've had planned it, but the Book of Glamour never came to the light). Maybe they should do something about how troll's birthrights work, as they did in their Nocker's preview.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Neon.Sidhe View Post
                      Actually I tend to agree with you about the Trolls (partially). I've never thought about them this way. Thanks.
                      But, on the other side, I don't see the same about the other kiths. I insist: the writers should explore more the Seemings, Glamour and Banality (and I think they've had planned it, but the Book of Glamour never came to the light). Maybe they should do something about how troll's birthrights work, as they did in their Nocker's preview.

                      Well the only two Kiths that are expressly effected by Age. Trolls and Green Men. The only ones where being a Grump means something different than a childling with banality 5

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