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  • Changelings vs (The rest of the WoD)

    I've been playing WoD for a long, long time... but never in my decades have I played a Changeling game or even experienced a Changeling crossover or NPC, meaning I have virtually zero exposure. Now, that said, I've read splats on them from the other books and I've recently cracked the core to start reading, but it's going to be a while before I'm fully versed on them.

    Which brings me to the question- what happens when Changelings meet or clash with other splats? If they spot a vampire, werewolf, or mage doing whatever it is they normally do, does an average Changeling come and say "Hi"? Attempt to murder or mess with them? Avoid and move on? Does Seelie vs. Unseelie make a difference in who enjoys whose company?

    What about their cantrips and chimerical stuff? How well does that affect mortals and other supernaturals? If a Redcap gang gets in a turf war with a Bone Gnawer (Werewolf) pack's kinfolk gang, or a Sabbat (Vampire) pack's gang... who is likely to have the upper hand and by how much?
    Last edited by Crusher-of-Cities; 09-07-2016, 11:11 AM. Reason: Less rambling


    Check out my mediocre WoD/Aeon/Exalted art at http://blackspinel.deviantart.com ! It'll make you go "Yup! That's pretty mediocre!"

  • #2
    General policy is one of avoidance, particularly among the Seelie. The Unseelie and the Shadow Court are sometimes said to have more dealings with the other supernaturals (Changelings have a specific term they use for them but its escaping me right now and my books aren't handy). Changelings tend to particularly avoid Vampires and Technocrats, as the Banality surrounding them is sickening and painful for most Changelings. There are references in older books to some interactions with the Malkavians and the Ravnos as an exception to this rule, as well as more specific references to Sluagh bumming around with Nosferatu, but your mileage may vary. By the same token there are some references to interactions between Changelings and the Fianna among the Werewolves.

    Cantrips are sort of weird (pardon the pun). Some of them have a direct impact on the material world (assuming the caster has the prerequisite Realms), while others don't really have their full effect unless someone can interact with the Chimerical world (generally meaning either a Changeling or someone who has been Enchanted). Chimera of all types require that one be Enchanted in order to perceive and interact with them.

    As to the question of conflict, like anything else involving white room balance it depends on the numbers, type, experience, and build of the characters.

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    • #3
      Also, sluagh and wraiths. Sluagh can, with a bit of concentration, see wraiths in the area, and for a point of Glamour can talk to them. This has resulted in frequent interaction between the two.


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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      • #4
        In some ways Changelings and mystic Mages seem like natural allies. They would both benefit from a less Banal world, as Banality seems highly correlated with a rigid Gauntlet and a higher bar for Coincidental mystic magic. And of course Mages can be beneficial for Changelings. They tend to have low Banality, and they are likely to know creative and artistic types from whom Changelings can draw Glamour (not sure if a Mage or other Awakened being can themself be a Glamour source or not).

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        • #5
          Yeah, I get that powerlevels and builds vary a lot. I wasn't sure if Changelings fell in a general category or not. Werewolves/Fera, for example, all get a starting power suite that makes them extremely dangerous in combat versus most of the other games' average starting characters, and ready to fight at the drop of a hat. Starting/Average Mages are decently well agreed on to be at their most dangerous with time to prep, practically mortal when surprised, but with the ability to go into demi-god levels of power in the very long term. Vampires are very damage resistant against normal weapons, but otherwise start off low power with immense room to expand.

          Back on topic- can/do Changelings offensively enchant beings to make them susceptible to their powers? I get from my initial lookthroughs that their powers maybe resemble a mix between Magick and the Spirit paths of Hedgemagic, with traits representing powers and other traits representing things they can target/affect. What sort of sample powers would an average opponent have? Boosted attributes? Spitting fireballs? Turning your underwear into scorpions? ...from the sound of it, Changelings aren't as potentially overpowered as what the other splats can mix/max into?
          Last edited by Crusher-of-Cities; 09-07-2016, 06:21 PM. Reason: Typos and stuff


          Check out my mediocre WoD/Aeon/Exalted art at http://blackspinel.deviantart.com ! It'll make you go "Yup! That's pretty mediocre!"

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          • #6
            Changelings are kind of the red-headed stepchildren in OWoD. Yes, they can enchant offensively. Changelings can attack anyone with a chimerical weapon, burn a Willpower and a Glamour, and enchant that target on a hit... but that attack does no damage. The target is then considered enchanted for a scene and can be affected by chimera. Otherwise the changeling has to spend a temp Glamour to imbue a token or object which the target has to keep on their person to be enchanted. Not great for combat. But they can enchant garou easier than any other splat, one Glamour and any garou in sight is enchanted. Not sure on the wording, probably means any one garou, a rules lawyer could argue for all garou in sight (but I'm doubtful that's the intent). But garou have a "get over here" gift that summons nearby changelings (resist Willpower diff 9), so not optimal.

            At lower levels they can do some interesting things, like minor illusions, simple telekinesis, ensnare with the environment, create a bit of fire, make big jumps, gain celerity, pass through barriers, and things like that. At higher levels they get bigger effects, like flight and teleport, charm, create big illusions, mini tac nuke, shape change into anything (but not gain the powers of the shape), geas a target (magically compelled to perform a task or go on a quest), and other interesting stuff.

            One common example is Primal. 1. Talk to anything. 2. Create natural element (air, earth, fire, water, or wood). 3. Create temp health levels (default chimerical, though an argument might be made for making those real health levels by spending more Glamour). 4. Heal or hurt. Main magical damage dealer and heal spell, one health level per success (default chimerical, though you could make it real with a Glamour). 5. Shapeshift (but without supernatural abilities).

            Another common Art is Wayfare. 1. Jump big. 2. Celerity (one extra action per success). 3. Pass through walls. 4. Fly. 5. Unlimited teleport as long as you have a view of the destination or a piece of it, like a twig from Hawaii, and anywhere in the world... bamf... you're in Hawaii, but it takes anywhere from instant to one hour to arrive.

            Of the ones in the 2nd Edition core, these are the two most common combat Arts.
            Last edited by Rabbit Pooka; 09-07-2016, 06:30 PM.

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            • #7
              A more perplexing question is how changelings would react to Mokole, particularly on the subject of Mnesis, and even more so about what happens if a changeling tries to use oneiromancy to enter the vision. Dragon's Dream could be the most horrific history - or prehistory - lesson of all time.

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              • #8
                Changelings really do need to avoid other supernatural creatures when they are in the Material World. When they are in the Dreaming, however, they become much, much more powerful and other supernatural creatures start to become much, much weaker. The fact that Changelings practically gain an entire dimension to themselves is one of their saving graces.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                  A more perplexing question is how changelings would react to Mokole, particularly on the subject of Mnesis, and even more so about what happens if a changeling tries to use oneiromancy to enter the vision. Dragon's Dream could be the most horrific history - or prehistory - lesson of all time.
                  Better yet, a Ratkin channeling the Blood Memory or in Rapture... Yunno, what with the insanity and all. Are there rules for that? Like if a Changeling enters the dreams of someone on LSD?


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Crusher-of-Cities View Post
                    Better yet, a Ratkin channeling the Blood Memory or in Rapture... Yunno, what with the insanity and all. Are there rules for that? Like if a Changeling enters the dreams of someone on LSD?
                    Oddly, it doesn't really work like that. The Dreaming alluded to in the title is more about a vast realm of semi-persistent dreamstuff. Think the Umbra, only with anything goes fantasyland encompassing anything from dreams to nightmares. Not really a specific person's dreams, rather the collective dreams of humanity.

                    Closest thing though is Dream-Craft. Rank four lets you ride a dreamer's dream into the Dreaming or interact with a mortal dream when the Changeling is already in the Dreaming. No control, just interact. But the Dreaming is mostly dream-logic, so it's a trip anyway.

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                    • #11
                      In terms of raw power Changelings tend to be on the lower end of the spectrum... right up until they aren't. For the most part Changelings are the squishiest major splats and their mojo often doesn't stack up well against other game lines. That being said, they also tend to be similar to Mages in that if they can set up a very specific set of circumstances suddenly they can make some crazy shit happen. Then there's the weirder Arts like Chronos and Naming that can start really tipping things sideways.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Crusher-of-Cities View Post
                        Back on topic- can/do Changelings offensively enchant beings to make them susceptible to their powers? I get from my initial lookthroughs that their powers maybe resemble a mix between Magick and the Spirit paths of Hedgemagic, with traits representing powers and other traits representing things they can target/affect. What sort of sample powers would an average opponent have? Boosted attributes? Spitting fireballs? Turning your underwear into scorpions? ...from the sound of it, Changelings aren't as potentially overpowered as what the other splats can mix/max into?
                        Keeping in mind, that all of this will certainly be rendered moot once C20 comes out.

                        Rabbit Pooka covered a decent amount of the more combat focused stuff for Changeling. The Enchanting attack he/she described is The Enchanted Stroke. It does no damage, but enchants the being for the scene. Alternatively, there is The Dolorous Blow, which costs a Willpower and enchants the target for that turn. That does do damage, as the chimerical weapon becomes real for the remainder of the turn. Coupled with Quicksilver (Wayfare 2, for extra actions) you can do a lot of damage.

                        Then there's the Dragon's Ire, which relies heavily on the Rememberance background, but will more or less cover the boosted attributes angle. A Wilder or Childling Sidhe (in Duels) or Redcaps (anytime their wounded) can almost always max out (the the background rating) their roll to activate it. It adds X amount of dice (successes to activate) to combat rolls once per round. So Rememberance 5 means that the Changeling in question has 5 extra dice to add per round to some roll or another. It is fairly easy to have a Changeling rolling over 10-13 dice to hit or to damage. Also, Chimerical damage shouldn't be underestimated. It can and will incapacitate.

                        Starting character-wise, usually a Changeling will have 1 or 2 tricks they are particularly good at. Casting Cantrips on oneself is usually the Changeling's own Banality rating+4, so 5 for Childlings. It is very easy to get high amounts of successes that way. There are also ways to lower the dif of the roll, though the easiest is by spending Glamour which they don't usually have large amounts of. There are a few different interesting tricks you can do using some of the powers.

                        Naming is kind of ridiculous. Even without being able to change (insert Realm here) fundamentally, you can use Runes to get extra dice to some other roll. So Rune and object, and use that object to cast another cantrip (I've seen Quicksilver cast for 14 extra actions at one point), with a base dif of 5. But that is really kind of cheesy. Runic Circle (level 3) makes you outright Immune to Mage Spheres up to level 4 with 5 successes (also covered at that point are Arts to level 5 and all other Supernatural powers to level 3). That's just kind of crazy.

                        Sovereign level 2 lets you issue commands that (insert Realm) has to follow. Usually the Realm is Actor or Fae, but the system does encourage you to be creative. Along that line, if you combine it with Fae 5 (magic) you should be able to attempt to command magic itself to do something, which is certainly a cheesy way to redirect spells, gifts, etc.

                        Lots and lots of things like that are encourages using the Arts/Realms system. Changeling work best with creative use of powers. Even without trickery, the Dragons Ire and decent equipment can push Changelings to be able to compete on combat levels with other Prodigals, though that will suffer depending on how splitting dice pools work for your game.

                        I have seen a player take a Gurhal's Crinos, Rage enhanced hit directly to the face and suffer zero damage. Not that she (the Sidhe) would have won a prolonged fight, but that really did make the Gurahl player rethink what was happening. The Gurahl even had to roll Willpower, dif 8 or 9 to attack the Sidhe head on (because Birthrights vary wildly in power level for what they can do). And for me, it's surprising moments like that that I remember from Changeling crossovers.

                        Edit: Oh, and the best part is that if you get away as a Changeling, the target is all but guaranteed to completely forget you exist that's to the Mists (Banality 4+, with drunks and lunatics sitting at a usual 5). Everyone is affected by the Mists (save for some fluff in a book somewhere about Malkavians). That goes a long way to explaining why one of the most populous Supernaturals in the WoD is thought to be near extinction. You could be a pack of Garou taken by surprise by a bunch of kindergarteners, get your asses handed to you, and have none of the pack have any idea how or why it happened.

                        So yea, (agreeing with Caitiff Primogen) Changelings tend to be on the low end of the spectrum, until they aren't and they pull off some crazy shit.
                        Last edited by idpersona; 09-08-2016, 09:03 AM.


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                        • #13
                          And chimerical damage on enchanted targets is a bit weird. Does it fade once the enchantment wears off, or does it persist until healed? If it fades with the enchantment, then you're only keeping them down for a day (the duration of Enchanted Stroke). But if it persists after the enchantment wears off, then it gets interesting. Chimerical damage heals at the "normal rate" unless you're healed by a changeling or spend time in a freehold. According to the book normal healing for Incapacitated is: "A changeling who reaches Incapacitated heals at the Storyteller's discretion; she may fall into a coma for the rest of her life (unless taken to a freehold for healing)." And since it's chimerical damage and only changelings and enchanted folk can see that you're hurt at all, anyone antagonistic to changelings will basically be in a coma till the Storyteller decides otherwise.

                          But yeah, Dragon's Ire is a good boost, but some of the other stuff mentioned is pure white room spray cheese.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                            Keeping in mind, that all of this will certainly be rendered moot once C20 comes out.
                            Yep

                            Changelings are only shadows of the legendary figures they once were. They probably won't be able to have lasting power in a prolonged fight, but thanks to some of the changes to Arts, Realms, Calling the Wyrd, and Unleashing, a changeling should be able to pull out all the stops and hit well above her weight class briefly.


                            Charlie Cantrell
                            Onyx Path Freelancer
                            Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
                              Yep

                              Changelings are only shadows of the legendary figures they once were. They probably won't be able to have lasting power in a prolonged fight, but thanks to some of the changes to Arts, Realms, Calling the Wyrd, and Unleashing, a changeling should be able to pull out all the stops and hit well above her weight class briefly.
                              I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm hoping for a revised and updated Changeling game that I recognize, not something wildly different. Though a bit of a boost in the power department would be welcome. I know that back in the day Changeling didn't get the revised edition that most of the other lines got, but I'm hoping that not too much has changed. The revised editions weren't wildly different than the base games, and none of the other 20th editions have been wildly different from their base games. Here's to hoping C20 follows that lead of modest changes at most.

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