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C20: Minor tweaks to a nostalgia product vs a more drastic overhaul?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
    It's a tangent, but... I would love to see combat become something less cumbersome mechanically and be more cinematic, but still be over the top and dramatic.

    My big hope for 5th edition WoD is that the core system gets back to its roots rejecting complicated, cumbersome systems and becomes more light weight and narrative based.
    If only. Hell, I'm hoping they do a 4th/5th edition of all the lines. Clearly there's still demand for the oWoD. If nothing else the V4/5 basics could be ported to C20. I would also love to see some non-house system books for the lines. Like a Fate, Savage Worlds, and Apocalypse Engine book released for the oWoD lines.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Rabbit Pooka View Post

      If only. Hell, I'm hoping they do a 4th/5th edition of all the lines. Clearly there's still demand for the oWoD. If nothing else the V4/5 basics could be ported to C20. I would also love to see some non-house system books for the lines. Like a Fate, Savage Worlds, and Apocalypse Engine book released for the oWoD lines.
      Because my roleplaying experience starts and ends with oWoD (with a bit of Unknown Armies, Fading Suns and Over the Edge), I recently tried to broaden my horizons with the D&D Starter Kit and Shadowrun Beginner's Box. I thought, 'These should be easy enough to start a one-shot with this weekend...' Then I started reading the rules!

      D&D can't even use one type of dice and Shadowrun combat involves so many details! D&D, especially, felt like a wargame with all of its rules for movement; and Shadowrun just overcomplicates combat to the point it kills the fun (ahem). Instead, I rediscovered the elegant glamour of the CTD Quickstart and thought, 'Now that's a good system for beginners!'

      Suffice it to say, I'm gonna hack both games to bits before I start either.
      Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 09-19-2016, 02:23 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
        Because my roleplaying experience starts and ends with oWoD (with a bit of Unknown Armies, Fading Suns and Over the Edge), I recently tried to broaden my horizons with the D&D Starter Kit and Shadowrun Beginner's Box. I thought, 'These should be easy enough to start a one-shot with this weekend...' Then I started reading the rules!
        Wow. You went straight for two rules medium - rules heavy games and were hoping for a quick one shot over the weekend. That sucks. Check out Fate Accelerated, the whole thing is something like 50 pages long and freely available online (legally). There's also Simple World, a 10-page generic version of the Apocalypse Engine. Hell, there's also Risus, a 6-page game that can do just about anything, though it's generally used for comedy games. Cthulhu Dark is a 4-page game that does Lovecraftian horror quite well. World of Dungeons is a 3-page Apocalypse Engine hack for playing D&D-like fantasy. Or Lasers & Feelings, a 1-page game that is meant for Star Trek, but can really do anything by finding to two opposing modes of action and renaming the stats, such as Go Quiet & Go Loud for Shadowrun, or Mortal & Fae for Changeling.

        D&D can't even use one type of dice and Shadowrun combat involves so many details! D&D, especially, felt like a wargame with all of its rules for movement; and Shadowrun just overcomplicates combat to the point it kills the fun (ahem). Instead, I rediscovered the elegant glamour of the CTD Quickstart and thought, 'Now that's a good system for beginners!'

        Suffice it to say, I'm gonna hack both games to bits before I start either.
        Just because the system is small and focused, don't assume it's only for beginners.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Rabbit Pooka View Post

          Wow. You went straight for two rules medium - rules heavy games and were hoping for a quick one shot over the weekend. That sucks. Check out Fate Accelerated, the whole thing is something like 50 pages long and freely available online (legally). There's also Simple World, a 10-page generic version of the Apocalypse Engine. Hell, there's also Risus, a 6-page game that can do just about anything, though it's generally used for comedy games. Cthulhu Dark is a 4-page game that does Lovecraftian horror quite well. World of Dungeons is a 3-page Apocalypse Engine hack for playing D&D-like fantasy. Or Lasers & Feelings, a 1-page game that is meant for Star Trek, but can really do anything by finding to two opposing modes of action and renaming the stats, such as Go Quiet & Go Loud for Shadowrun, or Mortal & Fae for Changeling.
          The boxes are labelled 'Starter Kit' and 'Beginner's Box'. They're ostensibly for newbies, or else they're marketing themselves badly. The boxes say there's everything included to start playing quickly, but the rules just don't allow for that. Shadowrun wasn't too bad, but combat looks bogged down in lots of math. D&D probably should have just thrown out all the microdetails for the Starter Kit and saved them for the core books.

          For Shadowrun, I'll probably use their own traits but Storyteller mechanics (combat especially). For D&D I have seen some hacks online that look simple enough.

          Just because the system is small and focused, don't assume it's only for beginners.
          Of course it isn't, but it's very well suited to beginners. I could show that to my non-RPGer friends (who are familiar with board games but can't figure out what an RPG actually is), and they'd get the rules straight away. The setting I'd just show them through play.

          You have four Traits, Basic and Advanced Arts, and a few pools of points. Combat is super-quick, there's no rolling for initiative, weapon damage is so easy it's ridiculous, and the result is a surprisingly robust set of rules with a tiny learning curve.

          Anyway, we're kinda getting off-topic, but I was trying to say that the elegance of the Storyteller system is easy to overlook until you consider the complexity of some of the others. I like having optional rules every now and again for dramatic, game-like tension, but mostly I just need something simple that doesn't get in the way.

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          • #35
            There are only two things that I expect to be completely overhauled in C20: the Cantrip System and the "How to Get Glamour System".
            I hope they improve and develop the rest, but more like polishing what we've already had.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Neon.Sidhe View Post
              There are only two things that I expect to be completely overhauled in C20: the Cantrip System and the "How to Get Glamour System".
              I hope they improve and develop the rest, but more like polishing what we've already had.
              I think you'll mostly get what you want. Have you seen the excerpt from the cantrips system?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                D&D can't even use one type of dice and Shadowrun combat involves so many details! D&D, especially, felt like a wargame with all of its rules for movement; and Shadowrun just overcomplicates combat to the point it kills the fun (ahem). Instead, I rediscovered the elegant glamour of the CTD Quickstart and thought, 'Now that's a good system for beginners!'
                Heh, I always thought it funny the DnD crowd preaches 5e for being rules light and story focused for some ideas WoD did decades ago. Meanwhile a lot of people here and rpg.net curses WoD for being clunky and complicated.

                Well, perspectives, as always.

                Edit: and we didn't go into Pathfinder-land... (which i also like for its own merits).

                The boxes are labelled 'Starter Kit' and 'Beginner's Box'. They're ostensibly for newbies, or else they're marketing themselves badly. The boxes say there's everything included to start playing quickly, but the rules just don't allow for that. Shadowrun wasn't too bad, but combat looks bogged down in lots of math. D&D probably should have just thrown out all the microdetails for the Starter Kit and saved them for the core books.
                What do you consider "quickly"? I'm not meaning it in a sarcastic way, just genuinely wondering about how different people see these things, since I never considered a few hours-couple of days digesting the rules prior to gaming as a really significant investment. Admittedly I'm not really into extremely rules-light systems, I think at that point we could just do freeform, or party games. As a matter of fact, I somewhat consider those as the party games of rpg, which is good it has it's own niche.
                Last edited by PMárk; 09-21-2016, 03:47 PM.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                  Heh, I always thought it funny the DnD crowd preaches 5e for being rules light and story focused for some ideas WoD did decades ago. Meanwhile a lot of people here and rpg.net curses WoD for being clunky and complicated.

                  Well, perspectives, as always.

                  Edit: and we didn't go into Pathfinder-land... (which i also like for its own merits).



                  What do you consider "quickly"? I'm not meaning it in a sarcastic way, just genuinely wondering about how different people see these things, since I never considered a few hours-couple of days digesting the rules prior to gaming as a really significant investment. Admittedly I'm not really into extremely rules-light systems, I think at that point we could just do freeform, or party games. As a matter of fact, I somewhat consider those as the party games of rpg, which is good it has it's own niche.
                  I expected a couple of hours, tops, but I was planning on running it the next morning with complete newbies.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                    I expected a couple of hours, tops, but I was planning on running it the next morning with complete newbies.
                    Ah, okay, then I could relate with the disappointment!

                    I didn't read the starter box rules, but I thought the PHB is doable as a fairly fast and light thing without the elaborated combat rules in the DMG and without feats/multiclassing and taking the simpler class archetypes. Even grid isn't as "necessary" as in former editions. I thought the starter set took that way to keep it to the minimum. I'd give it a couple of days to digest it although, before DMing it.

                    The again, my reference point is DnD 3e, so 5e seemed fairly simple, even with all the bells and whistles (and as such, DnD isn't a whole new system for me) and WoD laughably so (except Mage, but it's somewhat the point, IMO).
                    Last edited by PMárk; 09-21-2016, 04:23 PM.


                    If nothing worked, then let's think!

                    Comment

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