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  • Saikou
    started a topic Changeling and Arthurian Legend in Mage the Ascension

    Changeling and Arthurian Legend in Mage the Ascension

    I'm running a MtAs game, and one of my players is a Verbena mage (Druid) who's entire backstory is that their family quest is to search for the return of King Arthur.

    That was all fine and great, though the player is starting to reference a bunch of sources about The Lady of the Lake and her connection with the Fae. He's also talking about how he'd really like to encounter changelings in this game.

    No, I'm only vaguely familiar with Changeling. I know the basic premise, that their world is a delusional mythical version of our world, that Changeling are basically insane and need to cling to this insanity to avoid Chimeric death, but must also keep fairly grounded to hold on to their mortal half. I also know about the Fae in the context of Mage, the dreaming being called "The Maya" and can only be accessed via Fae enchantment.

    But that's about it. Nothing on mechanics, nothing on the types of Changeling there are, and certainly nothing about the setting.

    I've told the guy that anything that requires me to learn a whole entire game will not likely feature very heavily into my chronicle, but at the same time, it would be fun to put a few elements of this stuff into the story, just to spur on the imagination at the very least.

    So, I've come here for help. Is there any material in Changeling about Arthurian Legend, and if not then what else would be appropriate?

    What do you think I need to know about the Fae to introduce them properly into my game?

    Please limit recommended reading to sections of chapters. Just telling me to "go read Changeling" isn't going to help. I've got enough sourcebooks to read within the Mage setting already.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Saikou; 09-13-2016, 12:00 PM.

  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    There is a guy the Guhral claim to be the complete and utter "true" Arthur. That's all.


    The thing is the Arthur character comes from mutliple sources. You might have had a real warlord in post roman Britain, he would have nothing in common with our idea of Arthur in a modern setting. Various stories were incoporated into his story that were intially unrelated.
    Well no, they present him as a character with no claims from others that he is Arthur, most Gurahl don't even know of him. Its given as a nod to the readers, not as a story for the characters. And the Dream realm of Camelot appeared condensing a lot of the legends, its in Isle of the Mighty.

    But its pretty clear Arturas is the Original King Arthur, with maybe King David as the Archetypical Arthur, or possibly just just a Fae Noble, I mean he only just has Caliburn and is a King. Arthur isn't the only one who could have Caliburn.

    You can ignore it if you want, most games probably don't even have Gurahl but its there. Just like Sutekh the Vampire is Sutekh, considering his brother is the actual God Osiris.

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  • marin
    replied
    It's Gold, on a quick check of the books.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    Green Paths lead to the Middle Umbra. Black Paths lead to the Dark Umbra. I can't remember the color for the High Umbra.
    Gold, maybe? I can't remember either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    Is it like the Maya version of Moonpaths then?
    Is there a way to get to the rest of the umbra? Or is it pretty much just a Maya route?

    Green Paths lead to the Middle Umbra. Black Paths lead to the Dark Umbra. I can't remember the color for the High Umbra.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    The Silver Path is the only 'safe' route through the Dreaming. It was laid down by the Tuatha in time immemorial. The Silver Path runs through many/most trods at some point. So long as you stick to it, chimera have to spend Glamour to attack you, so you have a degree of safety. The Path also leads you along a route free of most obstacles. It won't be the quickest route, but it will be the least risky. Chimera and other denizens of the Dreaming will try to tempt you off the path, but that's another matter entirely...

    Sidhe and eshu have the best knowledge of the Silver Path. In fact, eshu and sidhe get -2 to the difficulty of finding the Silver Path Sidhe also often use the Dreamcraft Art to find their way (system: http://changeling.wenchipedia.com/dreamcraft.html).
    Is it like the Maya version of Moonpaths then?
    Is there a way to get to the rest of the umbra? Or is it pretty much just a Maya route?

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    Thanks. So what more can you tell me about the Silver Path?
    The Silver Path is the only 'safe' route through the Dreaming. It was laid down by the Tuatha in time immemorial. The Silver Path runs through many/most trods at some point. So long as you stick to it, chimera have to spend Glamour to attack you, so you have a degree of safety. The Path also leads you along a route free of most obstacles. It won't be the quickest route, but it will be the least risky. Chimera and other denizens of the Dreaming will try to tempt you off the path, but that's another matter entirely...

    Sidhe and eshu have the best knowledge of the Silver Path. In fact, eshu and sidhe get -2 to the difficulty of finding the Silver Path Sidhe also often use the Dreamcraft Art to find their way (system: http://changeling.wenchipedia.com/dreamcraft.html).

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    I was pointing out Saber because she's a pretty "out there" interpretation. Same as Monty Python, there's also plenty of "Arthur was evil the whole time this other character is the real hero" (Mordred, Morgana etc) stuff like Merlin and Arthur had a pedophilial relationship when Arthur was a boy etc. There's alot of ink that's been written on arthur some of it won't work for your story so having a reason why it won't is a good start.


    As for the Banality thing: I think I will cut it down. My issue is that Etherites properly represent from their perspective a nonreductionalist view of science. that is the core conceit of their battle with the Technocracy. That Science is a thing of wonder, not a tool for making the world a more safe/boring place. To translate this into Changeling they should have low Banality for good or Ill because they represent Glamorous Science.

    That if you put Etherites down with Mystics you remove the "SCIENCE BAAAAAAAAAAAAD" view which doesn't help the line when you have mad science fairies and the Moon Landing being important.

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  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    This sounds great. The thing about the Umbra is that are multiple realms that represent the same or similar things. So there are feasibly multiple Avalons, and that gives you leeway to be as creative as you like with it.
    Thanks. So what more can you tell me about the Silver Path?

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    Well, if I'm including her, I might as well include Monty Python's The Holy Grail. The more recent the interpretation, the less prominent it will be.

    I kind of imagine this being one of the main reasons why he never returned from Avalon, he went there to recuperate, but as time wore on and his legend turned to myth, he became influenced by the great many interpretations of him to point of losing his own true identity.

    The man that sits in Avalon now is an amalgamation of beliefs and ideas, no longer a person with his own internal wants and desires. His legend is the only thing that keeps him from turning into a spirit, but it's this very legend which prevents him from being a real human again.

    It's almost like Peter Sellers. He became so good are portraying his characters, but had no real sense of personal identity, feeling more like an empty shell when not in a character. He was whatever the people needed him to be at the time.
    This sounds great. The thing about the Umbra is that are multiple realms that represent the same or similar things. So there are feasibly multiple Avalons, and that gives you leeway to be as creative as you like with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    Nockers build things via normal methods. swearing is just part of it. Its a key part of all technological understanding. The yelling and the cursing. An Etherite would understand this. a Technocrat would try and cover up this secret because its not part of their agenda.
    That's the thing, though. The game doesn't really demand that nockers use a technological approach. They can literally hold things together with spit and sellotape. From the excepts of C20 we've seen, that will be even more of a feature. One of the key themes of Changeling is a love and nostalgia for the concept of play. Nockers can play guns with sticks and make them work. They might also be able to repair a car in the real world, but that duality is central to the premise. Most Etherites wouldn't just be able to turn a stick into a gun because, as out there as their science is, their paradigm would limit their options. Their paradigm has to make some kind of internal logic; changelings don't have to worry about that.

    Fae aren't bound by paradigm in the same way. One day they can use Hermetic methodologies, and the next they can play hopscotch. Both can be used to effect exactly the same cantrip.

    that is LITTERALLY what separates the Etherite Paradigm from the Technocracy. They litterally believe in not reducing the options but expanding them.
    Within the limits of a clearly defined paradigm, yes.

    That's bad science. You see something that doesn't fit your theory you change your theory to incorporate it. Not the other way around.
    Exactly my point. Science isn't banal. Bad science is, and the scientific methodology that's warped and abused by humans to justify things like racism and oppression.

    No its not. Because there is no "technomantic Paradigm". There are Hermetics who use technology has part of their paradigm. There are Dreamspeakers who are technomancers. There are Verbena who are Technomancers all 3 of the "Mythics" could be technomancers. Technomancer is a methodology not a Paradigm.
    You're right. Bad word choice.

    Because guy who goes to Hollow Earth and Hunts dinosaurs isn't the same Banality or Paradigm as "Guy basically goes out and Ravages people using Primal Utility because Economics destroy dreams".
    You're right, but giving a chart that rates Banality by what people do would be much longer and more complicated than doing it by splat (which has always been the preferred way of grouping everything in oWoD).

    Fortean times which is pretty much as close as you'll get to a Real world Etherite Publication regularly has features on Fairies, sometimes arguing they are UFOs or tying them to cropcircles or what have you
    Exactly. And that's quite reductive. Where once was magic, now there's 'science'.

    It offends me that Etherites who even the most mythic of mythics point at and go "that's fucking crazy" for stuff they do are considered sane, rational individuals. There's nothing intrinsically nonbanal about following ancient traditional actions by rote.
    The problem is that Banality isn't just one thing, though. It's partly disbelief in magic, wonder and faeries; it's partly reductionism, overbearing rationalism and cloying rules; it's partly human rejection of the fae themselves and of the mythic in general. And because Glamour is so intimately tied to the collective unconscious as well as to faeries themselves, the things people think of as traditionally magic tend to carry more glamorous weight than those things that don't.

    The problem really is that Banality is far more complicated than magic/science, belief/disbelief, dynamism/stasis. And yet, it's variously each of these things, and each developer (and each writer) emphasised or de-emphasised elements depending on their own understanding/politics/imagination. So yes, a Banality chart is limiting, but players need some kind of guide.

    Why not draft your own chart based instead on various behaviours, actions and criteria as an alternative? It would fix the issue and I'm sure many people would appreciate it (myself included).

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    You may wish to limit this unless he really is going to remember being Saber... which may or may not work for your game.
    Well, if I'm including her, I might as well include Monty Python's The Holy Grail. The more recent the interpretation, the less prominent it will be.

    I kind of imagine this being one of the main reasons why he never returned from Avalon, he went there to recuperate, but as time wore on and his legend turned to myth, he became influenced by the great many interpretations of him to point of losing his own true identity.

    The man that sits in Avalon now is an amalgamation of beliefs and ideas, no longer a person with his own internal wants and desires. His legend is the only thing that keeps him from turning into a spirit, but it's this very legend which prevents him from being a real human again.

    It's almost like Peter Sellers. He became so good are portraying his characters, but had no real sense of personal identity, feeling more like an empty shell when not in a character. He was whatever the people needed him to be at the time.
    Last edited by Saikou; 09-16-2016, 02:56 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post
    Guys, these are two completely different systems written without being designed to mesh with one another seamlessly. It can be argued that Etherites are not Banal because of their attitude towards science, their starry eyed optimism, and the fact that they believe that nothing is impossible. On the other hand it could be argued that they are Banal because they rely so heavily on the Scientific Paradigm, which does go against the "don't question it, just accept it, don't think, just feel" mentality of most mystical things. Sort of like how dissecting a frog will always kill it.
    That's called being a Sleeper. The very act of awakening is to question what is. The Quest for knowledge is at the base of every Magickal tradition.

    Anyway. So, my story is set in London, so anything to do with NewYork will need to be adapted in someway to fit, though I'm aware that's not really how Changeling works. Rather the entire world already has its own parallel map of locations which coincides with the mundane geography...sort of.

    Mage has the Mythic Realm as part of the umbra, and it's usually here where all versions of King Arthur can in theory be found, this includes all the variant mythic versions, as well as the historically contested versions.

    What I'm imagining though, is that this Verbena, when throws himself in the Lake and is rescued by the Lady, he'll wake up somewhere in the spirit world, in Avalon. He'll meet with the Lady and many of her servants, and after a bit of discourse will be taken to the King he seeks. This Arthur is going to be a confused conglomerate of the many types of legend and myth that have been spoken about him. Once he may have been a man, but his time in the Maya, the world of the Dreaming, has distorted him to the point where he is only certain of his identity, but not his history. All forms of the story sound familiar to him, and no single one of the many contradictory accounts feel more real to him than any other. If you mentioned that his sword was pulled from the stone, then he'd remember this, if you mentioned that the Lady handed it to him, this too would be familiar.

    I like the idea that, having entered Avalon, he will now need to leave the long way, which may mean leaving along the Silver Path.

    So, with this in mind, what would you recommend?
    You may wish to limit this unless he really is going to remember being Saber... which may or may not work for your game.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Guys, these are two completely different systems written without being designed to mesh with one another seamlessly. It can be argued that Etherites are not Banal because of their attitude towards science, their starry eyed optimism, and the fact that they believe that nothing is impossible. On the other hand it could be argued that they are Banal because they rely so heavily on the Scientific Paradigm, which does go against the "don't question it, just accept it, don't think, just feel" mentality of most mystical things. Sort of like how dissecting a frog will always kill it.

    Anyway. So, my story is set in London, so anything to do with NewYork will need to be adapted in someway to fit, though I'm aware that's not really how Changeling works. Rather the entire world already has its own parallel map of locations which coincides with the mundane geography...sort of.

    Mage has the Mythic Realm as part of the umbra, and it's usually here where all versions of King Arthur can in theory be found, this includes all the variant mythic versions, as well as the historically contested versions.

    What I'm imagining though, is that this Verbena, when throws himself in the Lake and is rescued by the Lady, he'll wake up somewhere in the spirit world, in Avalon. He'll meet with the Lady and many of her servants, and after a bit of discourse will be taken to the King he seeks. This Arthur is going to be a confused conglomerate of the many types of legend and myth that have been spoken about him. Once he may have been a man, but his time in the Maya, the world of the Dreaming, has distorted him to the point where he is only certain of his identity, but not his history. All forms of the story sound familiar to him, and no single one of the many contradictory accounts feel more real to him than any other. If you mentioned that his sword was pulled from the stone, then he'd remember this, if you mentioned that the Lady handed it to him, this too would be familiar.

    I like the idea that, having entered Avalon, he will now need to leave the long way, which may mean leaving along the Silver Path.

    So, with this in mind, what would you recommend?
    Last edited by Saikou; 09-16-2016, 12:23 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    Yes, and Nockers make things by bashing them and swearing loudly. It's not the same thing. But, for the record, I'm not saying science is always banal. I'm saying that the scientific paradigm tends to be more banal because of the people who use it and how they use it. Not because of discovery or knowledge or wonder but because of essentialism, rationalism and imperialism. These things reduce options, and narrow our understanding of the universe, rather than expanding it.
    Nockers build things via normal methods. swearing is just part of it. Its a key part of all technological understanding. The yelling and the cursing. An Etherite would understand this. a Technocrat would try and cover up this secret because its not part of their agenda.

    that is LITTERALLY what separates the Etherite Paradigm from the Technocracy. They litterally believe in not reducing the options but expanding them.

    Science isn't really the problem; it's the way humans use it in an almost dogmatic way to deny mysticism and magic (picture people like Richard Dawkins and their aggressive atheism, who arrogantly declare that there can only be science). Science is regularly used to say 'this isn't possible' and 'this can't work', whether or not that's scientific.
    That's bad science. You see something that doesn't fit your theory you change your theory to incorporate it. Not the other way around.


    But, as I said, IT'S ONLY A GUIDE! You can't use the exception to deny the general rule. Of course someone who never leaves the library might be pretty banal compared to an etheric adventurer, but in general, a mythic paradigm is more accepting of the fae and the Dreaming than a technomantic one.
    No its not. Because there is no "technomantic Paradigm". There are Hermetics who use technology has part of their paradigm. There are Dreamspeakers who are technomancers. There are Verbena who are Technomancers all 3 of the "Mythics" could be technomancers. Technomancer is a methodology not a Paradigm.


    Are you suggesting Changeling should never suggest any standard Banality ratings ever? How is that helpful? Splats are usually painted in broad brushstrokes anyway. Plus, it's just a chart. I don't understand why it offends you so much.
    Because guy who goes to Hollow Earth and Hunts dinosaurs isn't the same Banality or Paradigm as "Guy basically goes out and Ravages people using Primal Utility because Economics destroy dreams".

    Fortean times which is pretty much as close as you'll get to a Real world Etherite Publication regularly has features on Fairies, sometimes arguing they are UFOs or tying them to cropcircles or what have you

    If it offends you so much, just swap the Hermetics for another Tradition in the chart. Either way, few humans are likely to be lower than Banality 5 anyway. That's the whole point--being a human in itself is un-fae.
    It offends me that Etherites who even the most mythic of mythics point at and go "that's fucking crazy" for stuff they do are considered sane, rational individuals. There's nothing intrinsically nonbanal about following ancient traditional actions by rote.

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