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Is Mage actually more appropriate for Science Fiction than Changeling?

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  • What Gauntlet? There is no Gauntlet between the Autumn World and the Dreaming. If you do not go in through the ways allowed by the rules of the Dreaming, you are not getting in.

    By the way, Mind has nothing to do with the Dreaming. The Spheres that affect the Near Dreaming are Spirit and Prime, it says so specifically in the crossover rules for Mages in the Book of Lost Dreams. The Dreaming is not part of the Umbra, it is literally the otherside of the coin from the Umbra. If you do not believe me, please read the rules yourself, the books are available.
    Last edited by Aya Tari; 02-03-2017, 12:47 AM.

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    • Mind 1 is required alongside spirit 1 to view the near dreaming. It stands to reason that this continues as per normal advancement of sphere control.

      Book of worlds apparently is where that came from. Though I have not read it first hand.

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      • M20 also says Mind is required to do stuff with Changelings.

        Honestly, I think it's kinda cool that each supernatural creature requires different spheres to interact with them.

        Matter and Life for Vampires
        Spirit and Life for Werewolves
        Spirit and Entropy for Wraiths (if you're foolish, otherwise Spirit works just as well)
        Prime and Spirit/Mind for Fae


        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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        • Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          What Gauntlet? There is no Gauntlet between the Autumn World and the Dreaming. If you do not go in through the ways allowed by the rules of the Dreaming, you are not getting in.

          By the way, Mind has nothing to do with the Dreaming. The Spheres that affect the Near Dreaming are Spirit and Prime, it says so specifically in the crossover rules for Mages in the Book of Lost Dreams. The Dreaming is not part of the Umbra, it is literally the otherside of the coin from the Umbra. If you do not believe me, please read the rules yourself, the books are available.
          Again, that's like saying "The Underworld is not part of the Umbra".

          And I never said anything about a "Gauntlet" with the Dreaming.

          You seen to give too much of an importance to the Dream and changellings. Like it has been said, the other splats don't honor this game as it should; anyway, the book of worlds says you need Mind.. So, which source should I trust? The one SPECIFIC for Mages or the one of the other splat talking about them? If a Mage suplement say for example that changellings are allergic to technology... Should we believe it?

          Besides, just read the descriptions of the Mind Sphere. You'll see it has EVERYTHING to do with the Dreaming (Mind 3 allowing you to walk on dreams for instance, much like mind 4 allows you to enter the Astral Umbra)

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          • Of course, when we have more recent books with more detailed rules, it go with the more recent books with more detailed rules (the Book of Worlds was published in 1996 while the Book of Lost Dreams was published in 1997). Which do we believe? The book with rules that have been superceded by Changeling and Mage books (the Book of Lost Worlds was superceded by the Infinite Tapestry in Mage) and only had a paragraph on the Dreaming or the gameline with multiple books on the subject?

            Dreams are separate from the Dreaming. The Dreaming is built on the dreams after they have been dreamt, not while they are dreaming, so the Dreaming is built off of the spirits of dreams. By the time of Changeling (2e), the writers had separated to Dreaming from the Umbra, so much so that it is not even mentioned in the Infinite Tapestry as a place where Mages can go.

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            • Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              Of course, when we have more recent books with more detailed rules, it go with the more recent books with more detailed rules (the Book of Worlds was published in 1996 while the Book of Lost Dreams was published in 1997). Which do we believe? The book with rules that have been superceded by Changeling and Mage books (the Book of Lost Worlds was superceded by the Infinite Tapestry in Mage) and only had a paragraph on the Dreaming or the gameline with multiple books on the subject?
              We go with Mage when we're playing Mage and Changeling when we are playing Changeling, and chose according to our needs with crossovers. Changeling rules are informative and they are worthy of consideration, but they do not have a casting vote over other game lines.

              Or to put it another way, there are already Mage books that we have to discard chunks of because they are at odds with the basic contents of the line. HDYDT is only the most recent example. We've invented entire terminologies to describe which of the contradictory explanations of the Magic rules we are using. If we can approach the Mage books themselves with that much skepticism and discernment, we can certainly apply the same attitude towards Changeling books.





              Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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              • Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

                We go with Mage when we're playing Mage and Changeling when we are playing Changeling, and chose according to our needs with crossovers. Changeling rules are informative and they are worthy of consideration, but they do not have a casting vote over other game lines.

                Or to put it another way, there are already Mage books that we have to discard chunks of because they are at odds with the basic contents of the line. HDYDT is only the most recent example. We've invented entire terminologies to describe which of the contradictory explanations of the Magic rules we are using. If we can approach the Mage books themselves with that much skepticism and discernment, we can certainly apply the same attitude towards Changeling books.


                Alternatively, we can read everything and pick and choose which pieces you like which could be fun things for your own game.

                If we can't be flexible about how the umbra works, what hope is there for the rest of the game?


                Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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