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  • #46
    Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
    It seems unbalanced to me that one mage with Life 3 could meditate their way through an extended set of rolls every morning and boost their stats for the rest of the day while another mage with Life 3 cannot brew a potion that they can drink to boost their stats for 5 minutes that they can use anytime within the next week, unless they have a bunch of other spheres.
    Not all mages are created equal.

    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy


    • #47
      Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
      It seems unbalanced to me that one mage with Life 3 could meditate their way through an extended set of rolls every morning and boost their stats for the rest of the day while another mage with Life 3 cannot brew a potion that they can drink to boost their stats for 5 minutes that they can use anytime within the next week, unless they have a bunch of other spheres.
      The real question is - at the time it is imbibed, does the power derive from the mage or from the potion?

      Consider a non-Life example. A Hermetic with Forces 3 might like to cast his fireballs by pointing a wand inscribed with the seven secret names of the archangel Gabriel. That's cool and all, and the wand gets him a bonus/lack of penalty on his roll as an appropriate magical tool/focus, but the wand itself is not doing the work - he is. If you mug that Hermetic in the street and take the wand, it does nothing when you point it.

      If that Hermetic wants to create a wand that other people could use, that's when Prime comes into it - because when others activate it, the power won't derive from him but rather from the wand itself. It's fundamentally different to throw fireballs than it is to create a tiny bit of a mage within a steel wand that can itself throw fireballs, which is why one needs Forces and the other needs Prime.

      So for potions - your Life 3 mage can totally create a special potion he keeps in a hip flask and imbibes to grant himself stat boosts, but the power is coming from him and not from the potion, and if he sells you that potion and you drink it a day later, it won't do anything because he's not there. Creating a potion that can cast a Life 3 effect on its own is different.


      • #48
        Thanks haldir, that states the issue much better.


        • #49
          The issue with the two Life mages is allocating successes.
          If they use their successes the same way and the scene where the boosted stats are needed, then the mages are pretty much alike.

          But the Alchemist may think “I don't need a duration of a day, I grab some more Dex instead.“

          I think it heavily depends on your connectivity between rules and descriptions.
          If you separate them and don't try to describe things in a way to give you benefits you shouldn't have looking at the rules, then it works.
          If the potion brewer brews a potion to give himself a better body for a day, and he drinks it immediately after concoction, then he is equal to the meditation/prayer/yadda mage. Description: “l have to drink the potion while it's still fresh.“

          Another possible way would be to handle rules and descriptions even more separated.
          Both mages give themselves +2 on all physical traits for a day. They both have it for the complete day. One sips at a flask, the other meditates. Ruleswise completely the same. The differences are only for mood.

          The opposite way would be to use the descriptions over the rules. A potion is more powerful if you happen to have the correct one. This is so because it is more of a pain to have the right potion than to meditate.

          So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"


          • #50
            Originally posted by tzizimine View Post
            Saikou, thanks for providing an list of options, but I have a question about one of them in particular.

            The root of the question comes down to what is the difference between a Wonder/Charm/Talisman/other nomenclature for enchanted item and an effect that is locked onto an object that doesn't affect the object itself in anyway, but does affect other things near it?

            For example, if a mage uses Force 3, Matter 3 to heat up a piece of metal and keep it heated for days at a time (appropriate to the duration), that could easily be handled as a locked effect. Granted, the mage would need to be careful that the piece of metal doesn't get too hot to deform its shape, and that whatever it is resting on or held in doesn't catch fire, but again a simple of effect. The game mechanic of that effect would be the heat that the piece of metal gives off (i.e. it keeps you warm if kept nearby, but it really hurts if held or used as a weapon).

            Same thing for a Matter 3 effect, locked, to make a trench coat act as better armor. The effect is to make the trench coat more durable, but the game mechanic would be a bonus to the Armor Rating of the person wearing it.

            Why would these work as locked effects and not need to be enchanted items? Is it because they are constant effects and not effects that activate, run their course and then die off?

            If so, would it not stand to reason that creating a Life 3, Matter 3 effect in a liquid that greatly assists the body's natural healing also work as a locked effect? The effect itself is distorting the liquid, but the game mechanic benefit would be the health levels gained when that liquid interacts with a wounded human body.
            That doesn't work. You can use matter to turn water into Penicilin, but not into some kind of "magikal healing water". Well, defending on your Paradigm, you could do a liquid with several biological uses... But it wouldn't be a super magikal healing, at best it would be some drug that acts on several biochemical points... Thing is, it wouldn't be better than a mundane drug (you could have biology 5, farmacology 5, chemistry 5, biochemestry 5, bioengeneering 5, and perhaps be the Magaiver, the Tony Stark, Iron Man of the drugs sector, but there is NO DRUG under Consensus that allows for instant regeneration).


            Ok, with your "fire sword" as an example.

            Lets do this: Forces 3, Time 4, Entropy 2.
            We create an effect of fire around a sword. Accumulate enough success to turn it permanent, add Time and Entropy to put a "switch" on the effect, to turn it on or off with a word, for by sheating/unsheating it, for a matter of conveniente.

            Or, I use Prime 4(3) to weave the pattern of the sword, locking a Forces 3 effect on it to make it have a fire around it.

            What's the difference?

            Well, in practical terms, not much. You can use the sword to add fire damage either way.

            What's the difference in mechanical and metaphysical terms: the locked effect, is an effect you made permanentement. It is simple "involving" the sword. Now, the talisman/artifact that you made with Prime 4, has the effect as part of its own patter. The sword is not activally casting the effect when it burns, but rather releasing it.

            About mechanics: if I use countermagik against the effect on hold, it is done; so, it I counter your sword with a permanent fire aura effect, your sword no longer can make fire. If I do the same against your sword talisman, it will put the fires off for one turn - but it will burn again on the next turn, as long as the conditions for activation were met (a word, or being unsheated, etc) because the sword would "unleash" it's power again, since the power is in the sword, not in the effect. To end the power of the sword permanently, I would have to destroy it's magikal properties, something that require as many successes as building it (and an equaly hard effort to "undo" all the etherial changes made to the object).

            Now, when we go to the potions problem: using Prime 2 to make a charm, the liquid is not a "healing water", as a property intrinsic of the liquid itself (you can make the SAME effect using wine, an Herb extract, pure water or even gasoline or poison, thou in this last case the ressonance and bad effects of a poison would require Prime 3, more quintessence and more successes to make a healing that will also "heal" the negative effects of a poison... It's not smart or useful, but it could be done). The healing property is in the etherial energies storaged in the liquid - for all effects, such a potion is a Tass, and the healing property is in the quintessence "solidified" in the liquid, not on the liquid itself.

            Now, without Prime, a potion is nothing more than a focus. It has absolutely NO power by itself. Even when using Time 4/Entropy 2, it is only a vessel for the effect - the effect "hangs around the potion" waiting for a valid target and a valid trigger (the target of the effect is not the potion mind you; and the valid trigger is drinking it. When it is drunk, the target becames the person that drank it, and the effect is finally unleashed)


            • #51
              Originally posted by Saikou View Post

              Fair point. In which case I'd add to it by saying that in order for another mage to come and provide additional healing, they'd have to meet and beat the original roll before more damage could be healed.

              So if Mage #1 has six levels of damage and heals four of them by rolling 2 successes. Mage #2 would be able to heal the final 2 levels of Mage #1 if they roll 4 successes (2 to meet Mage #1's roll, 1 to target non-self, and 1 to heal two bits of damage as per Damage and Duration).

              If, however, Mage #1 gets hurt before Mage #2 attempts the heal, then the slate is rubbed clean.
              That doesn't make much sense. As the descriptions say "some sorcerors heal, cause a little damage, and try again" (the sorcerors world is probably just a mistake). That means that:

              - I heal 3 points. I cut the patient to cause 1 damage, and heal 3 more points.

              This description seems to indicate that, what limits the Mage is the momentaneous pattern of the living subject; so, a person on the brink of death, I only heal 1 point from her; after that, the new form of her pattern has been changed as much as I can... For now. Why can I heal it after one scene? Well, simple - life patterns are dynamic. After a time, the pattern of the subject is changed. The mage can't further change the life pattern as it is, but all he needs is that the pattern is changed. So, when I cut the target with a knife, I'm changing it's pattern - allowing me to do another heal. If I heal, another Mage CAN heal the target too... And that healing effectively changed the pattern of the target, which should allow the first Mage to heal or again


              • #52
                About using Correspondence for "witnessing" your potion being drank (thus, not needing to be physically present).

                It CAN be done.


                You would have to do as Ambrosia said: let the effect on "hold" for the final Arete roll (the ritual is only finished when the potion is ingested). So, you only truly "release" the effect when the potion is drank.

                You can use Correspondence to keep "witnessing" the scene.

                But... You'll need to keep the scrying window ALWAYS OPEN. Meaning, you'll need to keep looking with Corr 2 ALL THE TIME. So, you'll need a permanent (or, as long as it takes for the target to drink) Corr 2 effect for that.

                As an alternative, you could use Mind 1 toghether with Corr 2, to place your attention on that scene in "another mental compartiment", or even place it in a hidden place of your own mind, so you'll won't need to pay too much attention on it, like seeing things with your peripherical vision, or talking with someone ignoring the back noise around in a crowded place (and with Mind 1, you're free to focus on other things, and can be free from the penalties from keeping multiple effects. Just be careful - using this on 10 different potions will give you a severe case of pattern bleeding however).


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                  I'm a bit disappointed in how most of the interpretations demand higher level spheres, I was thinking that brewing potions would be something less experienced mages would be able to do. By the time you get to Prime 4/Time 4 (as well as your primary spheres) most mages don't really need to be messing about with brewing potions as I'd expect them to create effects with far fewer Arete rolls than before. Feels like a neglected option in the rules.
                  Have a Node which produces Tass with the appropriate Resonance (a special herb garden which is perfectly suited for a rare breed of [insert healing-related plant here], f'rinstance); that's one Background point. Take the Tass, equal amounts to the number of successes in the potion's effect. Perform a Prime 2/[Effect's Spheres] ritual. You get twice your Arete in 'doses' which perform [Effect] when anyone who believes in the potion's paradigm imbibes it, or when used in a location forgiving to that paradigm.


                  Quite doable at character generation, with the only cost being taking the "make magic items" Sphere at a useful level.

                  Alternatively, make a potion out of actual Consensual materials that actually Consensually has that effect, then use some combination of Life, Spirit, and Matter to improve its quality.

                  Note that this is what you need to make the Effect fire off at an arbitrary event on an arbitrary target. You might plausibly make a spell 'start' later than your actual casting time, I imagine, but you need to put in the duration successes to cover the entire time from the casting to the end of the spell, you have to set a particular target that you can 'observe' at the time of casting, and you have to put in the Spheres so that the spell can actually detect when it's supposed to transition (i.e., if it manifests fully at 6:00 Tuesday, you need Time 1 so the spell knows when it's 6:00 Tuesday). Also, it's actually active the entire time, and can hence be unwoven.