Are There Any Tradition Mages Out There?

[Aya Tari]

I was wondering if there is anyone on the forum who actually likes to play as Tradition Mages or if everyone on the Mage forum is actually a supporter of the Technocracy? I have always preferred the Traditions to the Technocracy because I see the Technocracy as a bunch of fascist genocidal maniacs who use the excuse of the 'Protecting that Masses' to justify every crime imaginable, from cultural genocide to white slavery, while all they are really doing is filling their pockets at the expense of everyone outside of the Union. In addition, I think that they have misogynistic and racist tendencies because the majority of the members of the Technocracy seem to be European men (with the occasional Asian man from the Five Metal Dragons when they need something from their Asian friends).

[Caladriu]

Until the end of time, there will be flame wars between Traditions and Technocracy fans.

I would venture that there are a lot of Mage fans who hear the basic concept for the Technocracy and want it to be one thing, whereas most of the people writing Mage books want it to be a different thing, and a comfortable balance was never really struck there. All the gruesome descriptions of Progenitor experiments and Syndicate corruption the writers can concoct aren't going to dissuade people who are more interested in playing a super-scientist than a blood mage.

[Saikou]

I was wondering if there is anyone on the forum who actually likes to play as Tradition Mages or if everyone on the Mage forum is actually a supporter of the Technocracy? I have always preferred the Traditions to the Technocracy because I see the Technocracy as a bunch of fascist genocidal maniacs who use the excuse of the 'Protecting that Masses' to justify every crime imaginable, from cultural genocide to white slavery, while all they are really doing is filling their pockets at the expense of everyone outside of the Union. In addition, I think that they have misogynistic and racist tendencies because the majority of the members of the Technocracy seem to be European men (with the occasional Asian man from the Five Metal Dragons when they need something from their Asian friends).

Please read the Revised Convention Guides or something. Your views on the technocracy do a discredit to this game, and substantially reduces the complexity and moral ambiguity their presence can provide.

Besides, if you judge the few by the sins of the many, how different are you from they?

[Karlgust]

Why can't one like to play BOTH?

I love the Hermetic Order (they make for great jerks for characters), I also love the Etherites (my favorite guys ever), I also like the Dreamspeakers and Akashic. The others I don't like so much. And its great to play with the Traditions.

But I also love to play with the Union. My favorites on the Union are the Void Engeneers and the NWO

Just make it easy on all the "White hate". And lets not forget that it were the evil white men that forced the end of slavery all over the world. Also, the muslims and Africans enslaved many more people than the europeans pal; Africa had entire kingdoms of which their entire economies were fully dependant on the slave trade, so take it easy.

Also, where did you get it that they are racist or misogynistics? First of all, the only thing the Union cares about is merit. In truth, women were second class citizens amongst almost ALL Traditions (except the Verbena, were they were actually praised and valuable). Etherites are truly misogynistics; the Celestial Chorus, Akasha, Ahl I Batin, Heermetics... To those, women are almost irrational beings. The only ones which deal as equals are the Virtual Adepts, and even so with a few prejudices (a girl playing RPG? Oh, common).

The Union on the other hand, abhor those notions.. Women in middle age, could only have a voice with the Verbena... Or within the Order of Reason. In the Order of Reason, women would be treated with respect and heard. No where else.

Your vision of the Technocracy is very black and white and very superficial. That seems to encompass your own personal view about the real world and a personal distaste about the western civilization and "the evil white men" than any other thing

The fact is, playing with Traditions and playing with the Union is NOT the same game... At all. It has the Spheres, it has the nephandi, it has the Umbra... But that's it. They are totally different games.

[PMárk]

Here, here.

Never liked the Technocracy. Never will. Or, more accurately, I love to hate them.

I could understand their reasoning, they have some valid points (which I could appreciate a lot more after seeing the Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman movies) and there are undoubtedly noble ones among them, but, as a whole it is just horrible in my eyes. People are saying the revised (and new-revised) convention books are portraying them in a more positive light. I dunno, I read the NWO one and, if anything, found them even more abhorrent after that. I might add that I never found the idea of organizations like S.H.I.E.L.D. and A.R.G.U.S. in comics appealing in any way. MIB was cool as a teenager, but in retrospect I don't like that either, although the film is still funny. Secret agencies without control and publicity and with immense power are just a big no-no for me, especially when that comes with a big chunk of self-righteousness.

They are good villains and could be very much nuanced villains with a lot of grey area and they could produce protagonists absolutely. Still, the Union as a whole is just everything that could go wrong with humanity in the name of "progress" and "safety". At least that's my humble opinion.

There was a long thread a year or so back about why there is so much pro-Technocracy fans on the forums. I still think it's somewhat the result of the nature of forums and that it gives a biased picture about Mage fans. IRL I know a lot more anti-Technocracy players than the other way around.

Although, I also think the white-male-hate angle is misses the point entirely, not even really true and largely unnecessary.

[Heavy Arms]

I've easily played a dozen Tradition PCs for every Technocrat PC I've played. The same is true of most of the people I play with.

I think the whole "the Technocrats are the real good guys, everyone should just play them!" think is one of those things that is far more forum and Internet jargon than most people's play experiences.

[Karlgust]

I've easily played a dozen Tradition PCs for every Technocrat PC I've played. The same is true of most of the people I play with.

I think the whole "the Technocrats are the real good guys, everyone should just play them!" think is one of those things that is far more forum and Internet jargon than most people's play experiences.

Playing techies is something totally different, unique. It is paranoia, secrecy, some idealism and a lot of opression. When you play techie, you play the unlikely heroe. It is cool on its own way, the feeling of "trying to make the difference". It is a different kind of Hope; in Mage, you have hope for a better world. In Technocracy, you have the hope that one day maybe, you could change things. For Mages, the world is full of possibilities, they just need to fight to unlock that potential. For techies, the world is an ugly place, right and left, and their hope is that one day it will be better. "I know the Union has as ugly side. That's the price we must pay, so that one day we don't have to pay that price anymore".

It's a mixed hope and despair theme, very different from the Mage game.

[Ambrosia]

I've played both, I liked playing both.
The atmosphere of playing each faction, and heck, each tradition or convention can be so unique and different, and that's before even going into character differences. You don't play 'The Traditions' or 'The Technocracy'.

I've played a Tradition mage that danced on a rooftop as she caused a city-wide blackout. I've played tradition mages that worked for the good of all and would have done everything to stop that other character.
I've played Technocrats that were hardliners who were Union First all the way, with all the sacrifices that come with that. And I've played Technocrats that were down to earth, good people that tried to improve the life of the little man, personally.

It's that funny thing about 'roleplaying' games. You can play all sorts of roles without sticking ro your RL preferences, and it's helluva fun.

[PMárk]

I've played both, I liked playing both.

It's that funny thing about 'roleplaying' games. You can play all sorts of roles without sticking ro your RL preferences, and it's helluva fun.

It depends. In a one-shot, or a couple-session game I'm perfectly willing to play a character that is entirely different in every aspect of personality than me. That's fun. However, in a long-term chronicle, I prefer to play characters I could relate to, to some extent.

I could imagine playing a Technocrat, in a long-term game, but not a hardliner, because that worldview is just so away from mine that after some point it'd case to be fun. Same goes in this case for the entire party. Yeah, pushing boundaries, step outside of comfort zones and all that, but I wouldn't play in a game, week after week, that is just not fun for me, because I don't agree with nearly any of the core premises.

[Heavy Arms]

Playing techies...

You might notice I didn't say, "I don't play Techies," or, "I don't like playing Techies." I'm not sure why you think I need to be told about what kind of game playing them is like. Even my comments about how the Technocracy is often portrayed online was about what I see as forum/Internet stuff that doesn't reflect actual game-play.

[PMárk]

Playing techies is something totally different, unique. It is paranoia, secrecy, some idealism and a lot of opression. When you play techie, you play the unlikely heroe. It is cool on its own way, the feeling of "trying to make the difference". It is a different kind of Hope; in Mage, you have hope for a better world. In Technocracy, you have the hope that one day maybe, you could change things. For Mages, the world is full of possibilities, they just need to fight to unlock that potential. For techies, the world is an ugly place, right and left, and their hope is that one day it will be better. "I know the Union has as ugly side. That's the price we must pay, so that one day we don't have to pay that price anymore".

It's a mixed hope and despair theme, very different from the Mage game.

I hear you and that's some food for thought.

Problem is, to me, after some point, when my character saw how rotten the system is, I wouldn't want to work with it any more. I'm pretty sure that 9 out of 10 times that bleakness would lead to my character leaving the Union. There's a point, when there isn't any kind of good intention that justifies the horrible side, when you can't shut your eyes to the abuses of power, especially when you have literal power yourself to make changes.

[Aya Tari]

And it is not like the Union will ever let you leave (it is like any other criminal conspiracy). At best, they will literally change your mind. At worst, they will hollow you out and make you into a menial drone.

[PMárk]

Might, or might not. Being a fugitive and dealing with both the hounds of the Union and the mistrust of possible new acquaintances outside of it AND simultaneously with a massive change of behaviors and worldview is a certainly a story I'm interested in.

Also, I wouldn't speak in such absolutes. After all, two entire convention left the Union and several minor groups too and it also has splinter groups, like the Friends of Courage. The Technocracy, (again, because it's a recurring theme) isn't omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent as written.

[Bluecho]

I hear you and that's some food for thought.

Problem is, to me, after some point, when my character saw how rotten the system is, I wouldn't want to work with it any more. I'm pretty sure that 9 out of 10 times that bleakness would lead to my character leaving the Union. There's a point, when there isn't any kind of good intention that justifies the horrible side, when you can't shut your eyes to the abuses of power, especially when you have literal power yourself to make changes.

This may be why upcoming M20 books seem to be presenting the idea of Navalon breaking off from the Union completely. The most idealistic parts of the Technocracy, after years of trying to reform it from within, decide that there really isn't any "saving" the Union, and form their own splinter group. That, or the Technocrat Old Guard decide to stamp down on the disgruntled rank and file (possibly as a result of Techphandi meddling), and Navalon has to break off simply for survival.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I suppose.

[Karlgust]

You might notice I didn't say, "I don't play Techies," or, "I don't like playing Techies." I'm not sure why you think I need to be told about what kind of game playing them is like. Even my comments about how the Technocracy is often portrayed online was about what I see as forum/Internet stuff that doesn't reflect actual game-play.

I wasn't lecturing you... I just used your text as a hook for my thoughts