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  • #16
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    I hear you and that's some food for thought.

    Problem is, to me, after some point, when my character saw how rotten the system is, I wouldn't want to work with it any more. I'm pretty sure that 9 out of 10 times that bleakness would lead to my character leaving the Union. There's a point, when there isn't any kind of good intention that justifies the horrible side, when you can't shut your eyes to the abuses of power, especially when you have literal power yourself to make changes.
    Not always. That's the thing with the techies. They do what they have to do... Because nobody else will. Yes, its true, you might say your char would leave the Union. That fucking dirty Supervisor that only cares about his own career. Control that uses you as a disposable tool.

    But... You truly ARE humanity last and only line of defense. Because, you WILL have to protect people from the reality deviants. And that include MANY Mages. Choristis murdering homossexuals for thinking they are sinners; eutanatoi killing children with birth defects; dreamspeakers persecuting common folk from rural places for some offense they can't even understand. Verbena using beggars as source for blood sacrifices. Hermetics keeping sleepers as slaves. All that you'll face. Not to mention crazed werewolves, dangerous vampires and insane spirits.

    Just take a trip with the Void Engeneers. Im sure you would change your mind.

    The thing is: the world NEEDS the Union. And that's why most of the idealistic agents decide to stay, and to try to change it from inside.

    First: the Union is the last line of defense. You may not like it, but the world needs them. And that's something the agents learn quickly.
    Second: you can only make a difference by working in the inside. If you leave... So what? What you can possibly do? Outside the Union, you're just another Reality Deviant. You won't change the Union leaving it - and you most certanly won't destroy it.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
      This may be why upcoming M20 books seem to be presenting the idea of Navalon breaking off from the Union completely. The most idealistic parts of the Technocracy, after years of trying to reform it from within, decide that there really isn't any "saving" the Union, and form their own splinter group. That, or the Technocrat Old Guard decide to stamp down on the disgruntled rank and file (possibly as a result of Techphandi meddling), and Navalon has to break off simply for survival.

      Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I suppose.
      So, just a new kind of Etherite/VA rebellion/persecution

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        And it is not like the Union will ever let you leave (it is like any other criminal conspiracy). At best, they will literally change your mind. At worst, they will hollow you out and make you into a menial drone.
        Just like the Virtual Adepts when THEY tried to leave. Remember how they said they were splitsville. And they laughed. And we laughed. And the reprogrammers in Room 101 laughed. And then they said April's Fool and we all shook our heads a their wacky pranks. As if anyone could ever leave the Union successfully and form a new paradigm that worked side-by side with those reality deviants. You just keep on keeping on, Virtual Adepts, and have the girl send in another jar of tears of third world orphans. I'm making martinis while we literally burn money to light my cigars.


        I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

        The Malkavian Madness Network

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        • #19
          The Technocrats are not humanity's last hope, they are humanity's worst enemy. Whatever their original reasons for existing, they are now a criminal conspiracy of genocidal fascists that oppress the Masses and suppress science and technology. When they do let technology through, it ends up being the type of technology that is designed to deaden the soul (why else would there be 1,000+ cable channels and nothing worth watching most of the time?).

          We have had the technology for nearly fifty years to publicly go back to the Moon (going to the Moon is part of the Consensus). We could have created Moon mines to publicaly build orbital colonies, solar power satellites, and other miracles of science,l. The Technocrats prevented that from happening because they want to keep the good stuff for themselves.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            The Technocrats are not humanity's last hope, they are humanity's worst enemy. Whatever their original reasons for existing, they are now a criminal conspiracy of genocidal fascists that oppress the Masses and suppress science and technology. When they do let technology through, it ends up being the type of technology that is designed to deaden the soul (why else would there be 1,000+ cable channels and nothing worth watching most of the time?).

            We have had the technology for nearly fifty years to publicly go back to the Moon (going to the Moon is part of the Consensus). We could have created Moon mines to publicaly build orbital colonies, solar power satellites, and other miracles of science,l. The Technocrats prevented that from happening because they want to keep the good stuff for themselves.
            Yeah, your technocrats are boring.

            They are basically 1 dimensional moustache twirling unquestionably evil villains.

            I have no use for such a simplistic interpretation.


            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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            • #21
              How else would anyone explain the course of human development over the last fifty years? Kindred don't care either way, they just want to stay hidden and wealthy, and no one else has the power to decide the course of humanity. If the Technocrats have even a tenth of the power that they claim, they could have facilitated the colonization of Outer Space by the Masses. I think that they were just jealous because they understood that the Masses could move beyond the Asteroid Belt in Outer Space while the Technocrats would be stuck in the Deep Umbra.

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              • #22
                Like the Spartans said... " If the Technocrats have even a tenth of the power that they claim." If.

                Also, why would they be stuck in the Deep Umbra as the masses move past the Belt? They can get on a spaceship the same as anyone else. It's no different, metaphysically, from riding a bus.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  How else would anyone explain the course of human development over the last fifty years? Kindred don't care either way, they just want to stay hidden and wealthy, and no one else has the power to decide the course of humanity. If the Technocrats have even a tenth of the power that they claim, they could have facilitated the colonization of Outer Space by the Masses. I think that they were just jealous because they understood that the Masses could move beyond the Asteroid Belt in Outer Space while the Technocrats would be stuck in the Deep Umbra.
                  OUTER SPACE LITERALLY NO LONGER EXISTS.

                  I mean how many times do we have to repeat the same thing? 90% of "Outer Space" AKA Conventional space was destroyed by the DA, taking most of the void engineers, the people who BUILD the place with it.

                  They have barely half of the solar system to work with, and are STILL fending off attacks by Nephandi and Threat Null constantly. Meanwhile the VE have to keep the other conventions in the dark because Threat Null still has access to the NWO mind control protocols implanted in every agent but the VE.

                  There IS no outer space beyond the Asteroid belt. It doesn't exist. Because outer space is LITERALLY A CREATION OF THE UNION.

                  Not to mention that you have the traditions fighting EVERY technological innovation tooth and nail. Y'know how in congress senators will attach terrible things to otherwise good bills? ALL THE TIME?

                  That's what's happening with technology. You can thank the Verbena for Carsickness.

                  Why would we put people into SPACE which is already trouble enough for us, when there's still a huge amount of mudball that hasn't been used yet?

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                  • #24
                    When you look at WtA, Fera are capable of accessing Space on three levels (Aetherial Realm, Deep Umbra, and Outer Space) while Mages are only capable of accessing Space on two levels (Aetherial Realm and Outer Space within the Asteroid Belt and Aetherial Realm and Deep Umbra beyond the Asteroid Belt). Since the defining feature of the Technocrats is their Awakened Avatar, their Awakened Avatar is probably preventing them from accessing Outer Space because Outer Space is lethally dangerous (the Union gets around this within the Asteroid Belt through 'formatting space', which seems to be a complicated way of convincing their Awakened Avatars that Outer Space is safe enough). Remember, Technocrats think that the atmosphere of the Near Umbra (the worlds beyond the Penumbra, as stated in Void Engineers, p. 39) is lethally toxic and, while everything else can go merrily on their way, Technocrats have to wear protective outfits because they have convinced their Awakened Avatars that they will die without protective outfits (which means that it is their Awakened Avatars that cause them to die of asphyxiation, a sort of magical psychosomatic reaction, which they have programmed into the minds of their Unenlightened agents through the magical conditioning that their Unenlightened agents suffer through during indoctrination)

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                    • #25
                      Ummm.... what?

                      FORMAT SPACE creates the airless void filled with bits of space rock that we all know and love as outer space. It makes the otherwise perfectly livable Umbra into a hostile vacuum. There IS NO Outer space beyond the asteroid belt. Because that's as far as has been built. Outer space is not a natural occurrence.

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                      • #26
                        Well then, obviously the Technocracy aren't as powerful as they claim to be.

                        Also, nephandic infiltration.


                        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          How else would anyone explain the course of human development over the last fifty years?
                          What, that violence is at a historic low, that life expectancies are longer, that people as a whole are wealthier, happier, and smarter than they have been at any point in human history?

                          Cancer survival rates have doubled since 1970. Life expectancy has increased 10 years since 1967. 50 years ago, public facilities and accommodations were segregated on the basis of race, while less than a month ago the first African American president of the United States concluded his second term in office. 50 years ago a young girl who found herself pregnant had no choice to either carry the child to term or undergo a safe medical procedure to end the pregnancy. She would be forced to give birth and, more often than not, the child would be taken from her in a situation in which her consent was a surprise bonus fun extra, not a legal requirement.

                          Violence is at a historic low. In 2014 the deaths in war worldwide was 1.4 per 100,000 people. That's a slight uptick from where it was in 2010, to 1.2 per 100,000, but it's still better than, literally any other time in human history. Today I have the option in large parts of the world to live openly as an LGTB person, unlike anywhere in the 1970s. I don't have to breathe secondhand smoke in restaurants or suck on leaded fumes from automobile engines. If I have the sudden urge to study the history of French architecture, I can turn to Wikipedia and learn all I care to about the subject, if I don't get distracted by WikiWalking to links about wet T-shirt contests. If I get a sudden urge to reconnect with my best friend in high school, I have Facebook instead of hoping against hope that the alumni association can help me out.

                          You do realize we're in the Golden Age of Television, right? According to Rolling Stone, of the 100 best TV shows of all times as determined by both critical review and popular choice, 3 of them are currently ongoing, 1 aired during the 1990s, 4 aired during the 2000s, and only 2 aired in the 60s and 70s (the shows were The Daily Show, All in the Family, Saturday Night Live, The Twilight Zone, The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Wire, and The Sopranos, btw.)

                          And I repeat because it seems to be a point worth arguing. To say down with the Technocracy is to say "Down with antibiotics." Because if the Traditions paradigm ascend and consensual reality rejects repeatable, replicable effects from biochemistry, then antibiotics go bye-bye. Maybe your local witch doctor can cure the kid's strep throat before it leads to heart valve disease. But under the scientific paradigm, I don't need to see an Enlightened Verbenna or pay a blood price for a cure. I can get a full dose of penicillin for like $20, and oh yeah. No dead kid.


                          I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                          The Malkavian Madness Network

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                            Ummm.... what?

                            FORMAT SPACE creates the airless void filled with bits of space rock that we all know and love as outer space. It makes the otherwise perfectly livable Umbra into a hostile vacuum. There IS NO Outer space beyond the asteroid belt. Because that's as far as has been built. Outer space is not a natural occurrence.
                            Outer Space is a natural occurrence in WtA.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post

                              Outer Space is a natural occurrence in WtA.
                              Not if it's a cross over with Mage.

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                              • #30
                                I am also one of the players that enjoys both Traditions and the Technocracy. Just really depends on what type of game you are running.

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