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  • Aya Tari
    started a topic Are There Any Tradition Mages Out There?

    Are There Any Tradition Mages Out There?

    I was wondering if there is anyone on the forum who actually likes to play as Tradition Mages or if everyone on the Mage forum is actually a supporter of the Technocracy? I have always preferred the Traditions to the Technocracy because I see the Technocracy as a bunch of fascist genocidal maniacs who use the excuse of the 'Protecting that Masses' to justify every crime imaginable, from cultural genocide to white slavery, while all they are really doing is filling their pockets at the expense of everyone outside of the Union. In addition, I think that they have misogynistic and racist tendencies because the majority of the members of the Technocracy seem to be European men (with the occasional Asian man from the Five Metal Dragons when they need something from their Asian friends).

  • idpersona
    replied
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    We are really off topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining just yet, so I'll continue.
    BenjCano, I actually think this tangent will be a decent topic of discussion on the Werewolf forums. So I will reference/link this thread there. If you would like to continue the discussion, that seems a better place for it. If not, that is perfectly alright (I'm trying to be as considerate in moving this topic there are possible). I'm just curious to see how other WtA STs would handle Rage/Frenzy rolls in some of the situations brought up.

    I will do my best to transcribe the last 2 or 3 posts there for ease of reference. By all means, let me know if you disapprove. And if you do, I will do my best to remove the connection back to this thread (and to you in particular).

    The new thread can be found here.

    Leave a comment:


  • idpersona
    replied
    We are really off topic, but I don't think anyone is complaining just yet, so I'll continue.
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Given that Pentex is about as sophisticated as a Captain Planet villain,
    Okay. So serious question at this point, just so I know where I'm coming at the discussion from. Have you played much WtA? I genuinely don't understand this opinion of Pentex.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    I'm prepared to say that cigarette and tobacco companies, themselves not too different from Captain Planet villains in the real world, are a hundred times worse in the World of Darkness. That being said, it's established the the byproducts of fossil fuel burning are so full of Wyrm taint as to be frenzy worthy offenses. You're telling me that cigarette smoke, which is on par with if not far MORE toxic than fossil fuel byproducts, isn't equally if not MORE Wyrm-tainted? And that being exposed to it isn't going to get under a werewolf's skin even if it's in a passive way?
    That is 100% my opinion. Coming into contact with Wyrm taint doesn't provoke a Rage roll. Garou would be pretty terrible if it did. Your next point is a bit closer to being correct though (imo). Moving on.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    But if some b-hole at a bar BLOWS IT INTO MY FACE, I'm not going to Crinos flip out? Because I find that hard to believe. I can make a case to deliberately exposing a werewolf to cigarette smoke falls under the category of 'being taunted by the enemy.'
    Like I said, this is a better case to make. And it really depends on context. If in fact it is part of a deliberate taunt, the Garou might have to make a Rage roll. Assuming the Taunt (capital T for the Taunt action) was successful, I would have the Garou roll.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    I mean, LOOK at this guy:

    That picture is from the Rage card game, which has deliberate caricatures of enemies at times. That just represents generic corporate sleazebag. That's really neither here nor there though.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    I missed dinner last night and didn't get a chance to have breakfast this morning. I was by no means starving, but I was pretty hungry. ANd I was in a foul mood all morning, and snapped at someone who was taking too much time making my change when I went for coffee. I feel bad about it now, but you know what's significant about me? I don't turn into an 8 foot tall murder monster or a green juggernaut when I'm angry.
    Garou don't Frenzy when they're angry either. The provoking "strong emotion" example given is "Rage". In situations where you would feel rage, not anger, is when the Garou would be rolling for Frenzy. I think that's a significant difference.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Hunger isn't the same as starvation. I can stand to miss a meal now and then. But low blood sugar can and does affect moods. I'd say that a missed meal or two around the full moon is a dangerous thing. So while YMMV, I'm not in agreement with you that only starvation counts as extreme hunger.
    So I do partially agree with you here. I didn't say you have to be literally starving to roll for Frenzy. But the "extreme hunger" to me means you are approaching that state.

    That being said, I do think that 2 or more factors (that might not require a roll on their own) combined will probably require a roll. So lets say a Garou missed a meal or 2 and is tired, and someone offhandedly mouths off to the Garou (not an actual taunt)...that Garou might very well be rolling Rage. But its a combination of several minor factors adding up to the Rage roll.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    Without going into a discussion of feminism at all, I'll just point out that one of the thirteen valid tribes at character creation is the Black Furies. And they might disagree with you about whether or not being catcalled is a frenzy-worth offense. And I'll let them disagree with you from across the city, thanks.
    So again, "anger" and "rage" are 2 different things. A catcalled Fury will almost certainly be angry, and thus address the situation (assuming they have the time to). Quite possibly violently. That doesn't mean that they are going to Frenzy and kill someone. It only takes a round or so delay to break the person's jaw. And doing so is probably quite soothing to their Rage.

    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    So the story is that a pregnant Kinfolk woman has gone missing. She was last seen in the Rack downtown, near a club where it is known that vampires hang out. The pack decide to investigate, go to the bar and ask around, and see if anyone has seen her. You're telling me we're not bringing the Ahroun if it's the full moon? Are we bringing him between gibbous and full? Is a 26% chance of Frenzy in response to the doorman's sufficient to take the risk? What about if it's between half and gibbous? Is a 16% chance of frenzy an acceptable risk? Or does the Ahroun not get to participate if we have to go into a densely populated area between the half and full moon?
    Since you set up this scenario, I'm going to address it from the perspective of a pack actually playing the game. It's a full moon and a kinfolk goes missing and the pack has to go deal with it. This isn't anywhere near the problem you set it up as.

    Solution 1: The Alpha tells the pack to burn off some Rage before going in. After all, it's temporary Rage that gets rolled for Frenzy, not permanent. The pack spends a couple of minutes burning off steam and feels much calmer now so they can head into the city and deal with the stressful situation with clear heads. That's one solution and probably the one I'd go with. And it leaves next to zero chance of Frenzy risk. If something does go down, well Garou can handle themselves without spending Rage. If they face a Supernatural threat, and their few Rage points don't cut it, they draw the fight outside and refill their Rage from looking to Luna. The Ahroun can go from 0 to 10 Rage without batting an eye. All other pack members will refill 4 Rage each for looking to the moon. That should be plenty to carry them through a fight.

    Solution 2: The pack splits up. The Ragabash (and maybe one other) heads in to scout (part of their job) while the rest of the pack hangs back, either in the material or in the Umbra. If they spy from the Umbra, most of the pack is together and should be able to clean out a few Banes if they come across them there. If the Ragabash gets into trouble, the pack can literally come out of nowhere to back them up. Any serious conflict will result in the pack spending Rage, and thus lowering their chance of losing control.

    Again, I don't see this as the problem you seem to. There are other solutions available based on the pack makeup/Gifts available. But these 2 will work mostly regardless of any other factors.
    Last edited by idpersona; 02-07-2017, 01:38 AM.

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  • BenjCano
    replied
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    Please tell me where smoke is on that chart?
    Given that Pentex is about as sophisticated as a Captain Planet villain, I'm prepared to say that cigarette and tobacco companies, themselves not too different from Captain Planet villains in the real world, are a hundred times worse in the World of Darkness. That being said, it's established the the byproducts of fossil fuel burning are so full of Wyrm taint as to be frenzy worthy offenses. You're telling me that cigarette smoke, which is on par with if not far MORE toxic than fossil fuel byproducts, isn't equally if not MORE Wyrm-tainted? And that being exposed to it isn't going to get under a werewolf's skin even if it's in a passive way? But if some b-hole at a bar BLOWS IT INTO MY FACE, I'm not going to Crinos flip out? Because I find that hard to believe. I can make a case to deliberately exposing a werewolf to cigarette smoke falls under the category of 'being taunted by the enemy.'

    I mean, LOOK at this guy:



    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    Being "extremely hungry" is on there. The word extreme is important. Now all of this is ST discretion, it eve says so. But I place "extreme" hunger near "starving" for how I see it.
    I missed dinner last night and didn't get a chance to have breakfast this morning. I was by no means starving, but I was pretty hungry. ANd I was in a foul mood all morning, and snapped at someone who was taking too much time making my change when I went for coffee. I feel bad about it now, but you know what's significant about me? I don't turn into an 8 foot tall murder monster or a green juggernaut when I'm angry.

    Hunger isn't the same as starvation. I can stand to miss a meal now and then. But low blood sugar can and does affect moods. I'd say that a missed meal or two around the full moon is a dangerous thing. So while YMMV, I'm not in agreement with you that only starvation counts as extreme hunger.

    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    Being catcalled is not on the list so that example is out. Most of your examples of what requires a Rage roll for Frenzy aren't things I would require one...
    Without going into a discussion of feminism at all, I'll just point out that one of the thirteen valid tribes at character creation is the Black Furies. And they might disagree with you about whether or not being catcalled is a frenzy-worth offense. And I'll let them disagree with you from across the city, thanks.

    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    And Garou don't go hanging around bars (or crowds at all) around the full moon. If necessary, you might send your lowest Rage pack member into something like that if you really needed anything. Garou understand Rage and what it does. They don't put themselves at risk for no reason. And if something goes really wrong, and a Garou would Frenzy, they should be expected to spend the Willpower and put a stop to it.
    So the story is that a pregnant Kinfolk woman has gone missing. She was last seen in the Rack downtown, near a club where it is known that vampires hang out. The pack decide to investigate, go to the bar and ask around, and see if anyone has seen her. You're telling me we're not bringing the Ahroun if it's the full moon? Are we bringing him between gibbous and full? Is a 26% chance of Frenzy in response to the doorman's sufficient to take the risk? What about if it's between half and gibbous? Is a 16% chance of frenzy an acceptable risk? Or does the Ahroun not get to participate if we have to go into a densely populated area between the half and full moon?

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  • Aya Tari
    replied
    And a McDonald's Massacre is more likely to be a BSD thing than a Garou Nation thing...

    Leave a comment:


  • idpersona
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    I was exaggerating about onions on a cheeseburger, but are you guys serious right now? Did Math hit on your girlfriend/boyfriend while you were out of town and that's why you refuse to associate with it?

    Being extremely hungry is a valid call for a Rage roll. Experiencing strong emotion is grounds for a Rage roll. Almost getting hit by an asshole who doesn't slow down while you're crossing the street is grounds for a Rage roll. Being sexually harassed by lewd comments and suggestions by the construction workers across the street is grounds for a Rage roll. Having Pentex chemicals blown in your face by the guys smoking outside a bar is grounds for a Rage roll.

    It takes 4 or more successes on a Rage roll to hit frenzy. During the full moon, difficulty on Rage rolls is 4. The book lists a difficulty of 4 as a 'routine' task. An out of the book Ahroun with 5 Rage is 40% likely on a given Rage roll at difficulty 4 to accumulate 4 or 5 successes. During a gibbous moon, that frenzy is 27% likely for an Ahroun. During a half moon, it's 16% likely. We're talking about half the month, 15 calendar days out of every 30, in which any out of the book Ahroun is at least 16% unsafe to be around if you do something trivial like blow smoke in his general direction as him. The gorram book says "Any werewolf, no matter how centered, carries Rage in his heart. Any werewolf can lose control and run amok if his Rage is not curtailed."

    ...and yet, somehow, you don't think that there won't be a few "McDonald's Massacres" every so often? There's a reason most Incredible Hulk stories have him wandering the world and isolating himself from the general public, you know.
    Ignoring the obvious condescending tone that you opened your post with, I will assume you are up for discussion of this. By all means if I'm wrong let me know and I won't bother wasting my time.

    So this is the chart for what calls for a Rage roll:
    Originally posted by W20, Page 261-262
    Rage Rolls
    At the Storyteller’s discretion, any of the following
    conditions may call for a Rage roll.
    • Embarrassment or humiliation (e.g. botching an important roll)
    • Any strong emotion (lust, rage, envy)
    • Extreme hunger
    • Confinement
    • Helplessness
    • Being taunted by a superior enemy
    • Large quantities of silver in the area
    • Being wounded
    • Seeing a packmate wounded

    Please tell me where smoke is on that chart? Being "extremely hungry" is on there. The word extreme is important. Now all of this is ST discretion, it eve says so. But I place "extreme" hunger near "starving" for how I see it. You may well think missing a meal constitutes a Rage roll. Being catcalled is not on the list so that example is out. Most of your examples of what requires a Rage roll for Frenzy aren't things I would require one for.

    And Garou don't go hanging around bars (or crowds at all) around the full moon. If necessary, you might send your lowest Rage pack member into something like that if you really needed anything. Garou understand Rage and what it does. They don't put themselves at risk for no reason. And if something goes really wrong, and a Garou would Frenzy, they should be expected to spend the Willpower and put a stop to it.

    For the moment, I'm assuming your math is correct, since I have no reason to doubt it. I just think you are/would be calling for Rage rolls needlessly. Do I think a "McDonald's Massacre" had happened in setting? Probably. I don't agree that they happen "every so often".

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  • Kammerer
    replied
    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
    Rage rolls are at the Storyteller's discretion, so if you have an ST who is an a--hole or does not seem to understand that Garou flipping out every time that a mortal flips them the bird would have resulted in the extinction of the Garou Nation centuries ago, then you will have the scenario that you are talking about. In my games, Rage rolls were reserved for extreme situations, and are more likely to result in a fox frenzy than a berserk rage unless there is no way for the Garou to escape (escape is usually easier than attack). Anyway, Garou can spend a point of temporary Willpower to stop a frenzy, which is a good idea if they do not want to lose temporary Renown.
    Garou Nation is not a country I can find on a map. So yes, Garou are in fact a marginalized element of society that lives in isolation and hiding without the major population even knowing they exist. Probably because they kept flipping out for no reason and getting killed.

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  • BenjCano
    replied
    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
    Rage rolls are at the Storyteller's discretion, so if you have an ST who is an a--hole or does not seem to understand that Garou flipping out every time that a mortal flips them the bird would have resulted in the extinction of the Garou Nation centuries ago, then you will have the scenario that you are talking about.
    Are you a lawyer? Because if so, I think the Incredible Hulk would like to retain you in a lawsuit against Stan Lee for writing stories in which his uncontrollable temper and colossal destructive power resulted in him seeking out isolated corners of the earth so he wouldn't hurt anybody.

    I don't know why the Incredible Hulk (massive rage, unstoppable power) is relevant in a conversation about whether or not an Ahroun is likely to kill an entire bar's worth of people for getting smoke blown in his face, but I can't stop thinking about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aya Tari
    replied
    Rage rolls are at the Storyteller's discretion, so if you have an ST who is an a--hole or does not seem to understand that Garou flipping out every time that a mortal flips them the bird would have resulted in the extinction of the Garou Nation centuries ago, then you will have the scenario that you are talking about. In my games, Rage rolls were reserved for extreme situations, and are more likely to result in a fox frenzy than a berserk rage unless there is no way for the Garou to escape (escape is usually easier than attack). Anyway, Garou can spend a point of temporary Willpower to stop a frenzy, which is a good idea if they do not want to lose temporary Renown.

    Leave a comment:


  • BenjCano
    replied
    I was exaggerating about onions on a cheeseburger, but are you guys serious right now? Did Math hit on your girlfriend/boyfriend while you were out of town and that's why you refuse to associate with it?

    Being extremely hungry is a valid call for a Rage roll. Experiencing strong emotion is grounds for a Rage roll. Almost getting hit by an asshole who doesn't slow down while you're crossing the street is grounds for a Rage roll. Being sexually harassed by lewd comments and suggestions by the construction workers across the street is grounds for a Rage roll. Having Pentex chemicals blown in your face by the guys smoking outside a bar is grounds for a Rage roll.

    It takes 4 or more successes on a Rage roll to hit frenzy. During the full moon, difficulty on Rage rolls is 4. The book lists a difficulty of 4 as a 'routine' task. An out of the book Ahroun with 5 Rage is 40% likely on a given Rage roll at difficulty 4 to accumulate 4 or 5 successes. During a gibbous moon, that frenzy is 27% likely for an Ahroun. During a half moon, it's 16% likely. We're talking about half the month, 15 calendar days out of every 30, in which any out of the book Ahroun is at least 16% unsafe to be around if you do something trivial like blow smoke in his general direction as him. The gorram book says "Any werewolf, no matter how centered, carries Rage in his heart. Any werewolf can lose control and run amok if his Rage is not curtailed."

    ...and yet, somehow, you don't think that there won't be a few "McDonald's Massacres" every so often? There's a reason most Incredible Hulk stories have him wandering the world and isolating himself from the general public, you know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aya Tari
    replied
    I agree. Rage is not 'I have a bad temper'. Rage is 'I am a weapon of war and, in combat situations, watch out'. Any Garou who had that type of hair trigger would be too much of a danger to the Veil to be allowed to go anywhere near civilians (including Kinfolk).

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  • idpersona
    replied
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
    When you can turn into an 8ft tall murder monster, and will go into an explosive fit of rage if the hamburger you're served has onions on it AND YOU SAID NO ONIONS GODDAMIT, entire restaurants full of people die.
    I'm hoping you are being sarcastic, but in text it's always hard to tell.

    On the chance that you aren't (and given that a few people responded to your statement), this isn't remotely how Rage/Frenzy works. The Curse might make the server think that's how the Garou will respond, but there is very little chance of losing control over something as silly as this.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

    EXACTLY.

    No need to thank us citizen, we just do our jobs so that you may live your pathetic oblivious life unaware of the monsters hiding in your closet... Just watch you sports and think about the best scholl for your children, save some money for your car and keep on your monotonous and predictable life; you can count on us to keep you blessfully ignorant about the world's insanities. So, when an unholy monster cut your family in half, you think it were a car accident. Ignorance, truly is a bless.

    Youre welcome citizen
    I don't know about you, but my favorite football experience was the time a dog came out in a team jersey and started chasing the other team's quarterback (poor guy had some kind of skin condition, and double jointed knees) across the field. I mean, it was probably a cheap gimmick, but the other team had been sacrificing fans in some kind of pre-game tradition, and who hasn't seen that a dozen times before.

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  • Karlgust
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    Pretty sure the sun is not alive and doesn't have free will, and I've yet to see you control that. I think large numbers of Mages working together managed to slightly alter the course of the moon to intercept a comet... no wait, that was a dream. Forget I said that.
    They are natural phenomena.

    But one day, glorious SkyNet will remake the universe into predictable and safe patterns, and no random uncontrollabe force will be a problem anymore, even the stars will be remade in its glory!

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  • Karlgust
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

    I imagine everyone knows of a friend of a friend of a friend who got attacked by stray dogs shortly after complaining about a bad tip. It's almost Nightvalian, really.
    EXACTLY.

    No need to thank us citizen, we just do our jobs so that you may live your pathetic oblivious life unaware of the monsters hiding in your closet... Just watch you sports and think about the best scholl for your children, save some money for your car and keep on your monotonous and predictable life; you can count on us to keep you blessfully ignorant about the world's insanities. So, when an unholy monster cut your family in half, you think it were a car accident. Ignorance, truly is a bless.

    Youre welcome citizen

    Leave a comment:

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