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Was Earth FLAT before the Order of Reason?

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  • Was Earth FLAT before the Order of Reason?

    Many people and cultures believed that Earth was flat. And, since Consensus shape reality..

    And what if one civilization believed in a round Earth, and another in a flat one?

    Is it possible that the Americas weren't just a new Continent on Earth... But another MATERIAL REALM, and that the Atlantic's "edges" were actually a spiritual division between different worlds... Separate "reality bubbles"... And when the Void Explorers "discovered" the Americas, they ACTUALLY travelled across an Umbral Sea and reached another New, Brave World? And after managing to spread Consensus upon the, literally OLD world and this NEW world, they've managed to bind both realities toghether in the same Realm?

    And don't know if that possibility could have any ground on the scenario, but it is an interesting possibility

  • #2
    That is my thinking on the history of Mage. It is far from universal though. A lot of people prefer the idea of a baseline reality that the Consensus only shifts.


    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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    • #3
      The Earth existed in a state of quantum flux in which it was flat, round, spherical, an oblate spheroid, cube-shaped, stacked on the back of a turtle, or floating in a blob of god-sperm simultaneously/none of the above until an observer believed in it hard enough and collapsed the quantum wave state for the duration of the observation.


      I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

      The Malkavian Madness Network

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      • #4
        No, Pythagoras proved that the Earth was spherical in the 6th century BC and everyone with a shred of education from the British Isles to the Japanese Isles knew the world was round after the 3rd century BC due to the spread of information along the ancient trade networks. Before him, the Lapita culture of Polynesia knew that the Earth was spherical due to their exploration of the Pacific. In addition, the people of the Americas were not Ephemera, which is what would have been the case had America been another Material Realm (just like the 'inhabitants' of the Deep Umbra colonies of the Technocracy).

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        • #5
          For once I agree with Aya on how things happened in reality. However, in Mage if the majority believed that the Earth was flat the the Earth was flat and it would be impossible for Pythagoras to come to a conclusion that the Earth is actually spherical.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            No, Pythagoras proved...
            "Proved." By using the word prove, you're making assumptions that reality conforms to the scientific worldview (knowledge is obtained by proof rather than divine revelation, pure logical deduction, or what I saw when I tripped out on mushrooms, for instance) and that the baseline state of nature isn't subject to change and that the trigonometric data can best reasonably be explained by a spherical earth. And that it wasn't flat BEFORE he made his observations and didn't revert to being flat AFTER he made them. And also that it can't be both flat AND an oblate spheroid at the same time.
            Last edited by BenjCano; 01-29-2017, 01:33 PM.


            I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

            The Malkavian Madness Network

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
              For once I agree with Aya on how things happened in reality. However, in Mage if the majority believed that the Earth was flat the the Earth was flat and it would be impossible for Pythagoras to come to a conclusion that the Earth is actually spherical.
              Actually, the Earth was flat for many people, but round for Pythagoras and the poliniseans.

              Those that believed Earth was flat, would drop from its edge, directly to some Umbra (into the Low Umbra perhaps?). Pythagoras and the poliniseans, would travel across the Atlantic, and instead of seeing the Edge of the world, would see the other "side" of Earth, on the Pacific, and would apear in the "other end" of the world's "disc". Space is an illusion, after all.

              Andd those believing in giant turtles and eelephants, would see a turtle with the size of Júpiter with 3 elephants on top of each the size of Uranus holding a flat Earth on their backs, as they fell in the primordial Umbral Sea...

              How would Pythagoras disappear from the Atlanttic and reach the Pacífic? Space connections between those seas, only acesdible by those that believe it so.

              About the Americas, it wouldn't be an EPHEMERAL world in the Umbra... Hell, the separation between matter and spirit is a recent event. At that time, its higly possible that "other Earths" existed... Actually, at least each continent were, in fact, A DIFFERENT world. Why didn't no one "discovered" the Australia before? Probably, because it were a separeted world. In such scenarios, the explorations of the VE made a lot more sense. And, it's even possible that some other worlds were left behind by our Earth... Maybe the Hollow Earth co

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              • #8
                The separation of spirit and matter is an ancient event, predating the Imperium and the first War of Rage.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  The separation of spirit and matter is an ancient event, predating the Imperium and the first War of Rage.
                  When are we talking here? 1000 BCE or 10,000 BCE?


                  Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 29: The Calm

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                  • #10
                    The Earth was never flat, because no significant body of people ever actually believed it. "Flat Earth" is, in the real world, a piece of propaganda that was invented to discredit specific groups (such as the Catholic Church) by trying to paint them as believing in ridiculous in things you can easily see are false.

                    Keep in mind that the strongest "evidence" for there being historical flat earth believers is... that people drew maps of the world as flat discs. It's like saying that using a rectangular map of the world means you believe the world is a flat rectangle.

                    "Flat Earth" myths in Mage only make sense as being exactly what they are in the real world: propaganda. Tools of the Order or Reason to attack mystics and eventually the religious elements of their own membership.

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                    • #11
                      I won't copy there my posts about the Earthly Foundations and baseline reality from the other topic.

                      If you like the notion of a World, which is totally the product and on the whim of the beliefs of people and the Consensus, by all means, go for it! But that's not how the Setting is written.

                      And even after that, as Heavy wrote, large swaths of people never really believed that the Earth was flat. That is one of the misconceptions of later people about earlier ones and civilizations.
                      Last edited by PMárk; 01-29-2017, 03:45 PM.


                      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                      • #12
                        The fact that the earth was flat didn't stopped Vampires,Mages and Fera reaching the new world many centuries before people in the western world accepted its existence.


                        By the way I can't understand why so many seem to have problem grasping the concept of earthly foundations.

                        Page 612
                        Earthly Foundations: Certain laws of Earth’s reality
                        physics are more or less fixed.
                        You can go against them,
                        but no matter who you are or what you do, those efforts
                        will almost certainly count as vulgar magick.

                        • Technocratic Reality: Here, the laws of scientific
                        technology dictate what is and is not acceptable within
                        the zone.

                        • Localized Reality: In certain flexible areas, reality
                        depends more upon specific local beliefs than on a rigid
                        set of rules.

                        • Primal Reality: Technology holds little influence in
                        Primal Reality places. The laws of mystic Old Ways still
                        dominate what is and is not possible.
                        In game terms, a given zone either accepts or rejects a
                        mage’s activities. The more she can play within the rules of a
                        zone, the more successful she will be.




                        Some things are almost always vulgar, no matter who’s doing them, where they’re doing them, or how they’re being done. In game terms, acts that violate these Earthly Foundations
                        contradict the baseline reality for Earth.


                        • Sudden Large Alterations of Physical and Metaphysical Mass or Space: Stacking places on top of one another, disintegrating large structures, changing large masses of physical matter into large emissions of energy (i.e., explosions), radical transformations of one physical form into another (that is, people into stone or vampires into lawn chairs)… such things disrupt Reality on a
                        fundamental level. Even when performed by technology, such large-scale alterations are never truly safe. The horrific consequences of nuclear detonation could be seen as manifestations of the Paradox Effect; so could environmental pollution, climate change, organ rejection, electromagnetic pulses, cancer, and other aftershocks of technological disruption. The bigger the Effect, the larger the consequences… and no matter who you are or how you work your magicks, no mage acts without consequences.

                        Obvious violations of normal physical laws: Water running uphill, people flying around, free-floating molecules abruptly manifesting as solid mass, turtles suddenly moving at cheetah speed… such gross alterations of Earth’s primary physical laws tend to incur Paradox. Certain long-term projects – like airplanes, flying ointments, and martial arts – might be able to bend those principles a bit, but the act of investing that much time, energy, and devotion to a task still recognizes that those principles exist. Simply ignoring them – say, by jumping off a roof while believing you can fly – is a good way to get your ass kicked, either by Paradox (if you do fly) or by physics (if you don’t).




                        Round Earth is part of the baseline reality of Earth, just as gravity: It's not like before Isaac Newton people could jump from the roof, because gravity was always there.

                        Consensus doesn't shape everything, the base structure of the world is already in place, determined long before the Consensus.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          The Earth was never flat, because no significant body of people ever actually believed it. "Flat Earth" is, in the real world, a piece of propaganda that was invented to discredit specific groups (such as the Catholic Church) by trying to paint them as believing in ridiculous in things you can easily see are false.

                          Keep in mind that the strongest "evidence" for there being historical flat earth believers is... that people drew maps of the world as flat discs. It's like saying that using a rectangular map of the world means you believe the world is a flat rectangle.

                          "Flat Earth" myths in Mage only make sense as being exactly what they are in the real world: propaganda. Tools of the Order or Reason to attack mystics and eventually the religious elements of their own membership.
                          This I will agree with. Given the nature of belief is is far more likely that it had no shape and no set distance (or even relationship) between civilizations and landmasses.

                          You know it is entirely possible there were civilizations and landmasses that were never incorporated into Earth, and instead formed connected worlds of their own. Food for thought.

                          Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                          The fact that the earth was flat didn't stopped Vampires,Mages and Fera reaching the new world many centuries before people in the western world accepted its existence.


                          By the way I can't understand why so many seem to have problem grasping the concept of earthly foundations.

                          Page 612
                          [/B]



                          Round Earth is part of the baseline reality of Earth, just as gravity: It's not like before Isaac Newton people could jump from the roof, because gravity was always there.

                          Consensus doesn't shape everything, the base structure of the world is already in place, determined long before the Consensus.
                          But what counts as an Earthly Foundation is up for debate. As is what Earthly Foundations actually are and if they are truly static. They are certainly a way out for players and STs who don't want to deal with a shapechanging earth, but the mere fact that M20 talks about them in no way indicates that the world was always the way it is now.



                          Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                            By the way I can't understand why so many seem to have problem grasping the concept of earthly foundations.
                            I suspect it's just they had a picture about the setting in their head about how it works and they like the idea of "consensus shapes everything" for various reasons. It's okay, nothing stops you to play in your personal version of the setting, but the official setting isn't that way.


                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                              I suspect it's just they had a picture about the setting in their head about how it works and they like the idea of "consensus shapes everything" for various reasons. It's okay, nothing stops you to play in your personal version of the setting, but the official setting isn't that way.
                              I can say the exact same thing to you, just switching out 'static reality' for 'consensus shapes everything'.


                              Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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