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Can a Sleeper be the victim of Gilgul?

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  • Can a Sleeper be the victim of Gilgul?

    As written above. Mage is not a setting I am extremely familiar with, lacking many of the books myself. But my understanding is that all Sleepers have unawakened, or are unaware of, Avatars. If this understanding is correct, my question was as above. Can you separate a sleeper from his unawakened Avatar as you would an Awakened Mage? And, if so, what is the result? I'd appreciate any correction if I'm misunderstanding aspects of Avatars in this regard.

  • #2
    In theory?

    Yes. Quite yes,they can be Gilgul'd.
    The question is how and if a sleeper would notice this fact. I don't think they would. Since their Avatar was asleep, there is no change in their life, nor would they be driven to the same depression or downright suicide a Mage of many years would be.

    ...


    ...

    ..and you just gave me an oh so evil idea.
    Sleepers without Avatars do not count as witnesses, nor affect the Consensus...
    This is such potential Evil Plot fodder.


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    • #3
      Mmmm...it has never been mentioned, but yes, you should be able to do this. The result would be a sleeper that can't possibly Awaken.

      Undergoing such a ritual for something so little it's, of course, extremely eccentric, to say the least. Appart from being difficult, this may put you in the black list of both the Traditions and the Technocracy, who would consider the act of killing the soul/genious of someone as utterly abhorent. Also, Avatars don't like this particular spell, and you don't want to antagonize your own Avatar, unless you like penalties to all magick.

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      • #4
        That's a way to get rid of those nasty widerslaints thou.

        Eutanathoi could do this on psychopaths as a kind of "prevention"... But the ritual of Gilgul is too hard to be done just like that.

        It's worth noting, that many technocrats operatives who were created in the Progenitors' Vat tanks instead of being naturally birthed on a women's womb have the flaw "souless", which means they can NEVER awaken (they are artificial beings without avatars, even if they are biologicaly humans). What follows is the obvious - they can't awake, they can't be ressurected if they die, in most of the cases (not that ressurection is all that common anyway, but whatever), and they can't reincarnate. After they die, they are gone (well... I'm not very concerned about my afterlife anyway so...).

        I don't remember other specifics about this flaw, but if anyone have the time to check the revised guide to the Technocracy, it's there

        Oh, I think I may be mistaken about the ressuction part, it may be possible to ressurect one of those (but it's hardly worth the effort) using Mind 5... There was another flaw, upon which this kind of operative turned into a pile of greengreen goo upon death (those two flaws are very common for Victors - clones made by the Projenitors - creating great disposable assets: agents that doesn't leave any traces in case they are killed during action - and even better, they can't be summoned as spirits/ghosts whatever)

        EDIT: the guide to the Technocracy didn't say that all Victors were necessarily "souless", however. Why would some be made with avatars, while others without, is not explained, or even mentioned. So, its up to STs to say if all them share this trait and if others do not, if it is a random event that clones "attract" avatars or not, or if avatars are "created" for a few selected clones (that last option may be a poor one, since it would probably require archmastery of Dimensional Science).

        Also, that flaw is optional, so it's up to STs if Victors may be "born" with "souls" (avatars) or not.

        There is also a few other considerations.... Wraiths are not avatars, technically speaking (probably). So, can a person without an avatar become a wraith? (I'd say yes, since vampires can, on the rarest of ocasions... And vampires don't have avatars... Probably)
        Last edited by Karlgust; 02-03-2017, 03:26 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
          In theory?

          Yes. Quite yes,they can be Gilgul'd.
          The question is how and if a sleeper would notice this fact. I don't think they would. Since their Avatar was asleep, there is no change in their life, nor would they be driven to the same depression or downright suicide a Mage of many years would be.
          That was sort of the point of the question. The claim someone was making was that Sleepers couldn't lose their Avatar without turning into something supernatural (Vampire, Wraith, etc). So it makes me curious if there are examples of it saying it can be done on Sleepers or confirmed effects. Mostly curious since I know there are clear effects for losing your soul.

          Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
          That's a way to get rid of those nasty widerslaints thou.

          Eutanathoi could do this on psychopaths as a kind of "prevention"... But the ritual of Gilgul is too hard to be done just like that.
          Also, is there a way to confirm a sleeper Widderslainte with 100% accuracy? I'm aware of Nephandi trying to awaken them, but I was unclear if they can truly know who is who and what is what.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
            Also, is there a way to confirm a sleeper Widderslainte with 100% accuracy? I'm aware of Nephandi trying to awaken them, but I was unclear if they can truly know who is who and what is what.
            In canon, absolutely not. If there were, then Widderslainte wouldn't be too dangerous, you'd just be able to screen them for "evil" and be done with it.

            If you wanted to make it a part of your game, then go ahead. But personally I think part of the tragedy of fear that Widderslainte pull over people is that any sleeper could be one, and there's no way to know until they start acting out.


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            • #7
              I really do not think that Sleepers can suffer Gilgul. The rules seem to suggest that Gilgul can only be done against a Mage, so the victim has to have an Awakened Avatar.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                Also, is there a way to confirm a sleeper Widderslainte with 100% accuracy? I'm aware of Nephandi trying to awaken them, but I was unclear if they can truly know who is who and what is what.
                Only perhaps with archmastery spheres (Prime 6+ or Spirit 6+ I would say, but those aren't described, except in that terrible disaster of Masters of the Arts - and I think that's a great thing, leave the archmasters as myths for plot devices, instead of making the same mistake of V2ed were they placed the mechanics of the LVL 10 disciplines, removing the wonder and mystery of the 3th generation)

                But, I dare say that Euthanatoi could do this as a prevention. They can't tell which persons have wicked unholy avatars... So, just dispose of any one with risks of having one...

                Oh, and Eutanathoi may not even be the only ones... Chorists zealots, extremist dreamspeakers, overly pragmatic hermetics... To think that traditionalists could be around shattering people's souls, judging based on their Hubris... That could bring a new, terrifying and almost divinely beautiful new way to look at the Traditions.

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                • #9
                  To be fair the progenitors have been trying to work on a way to prevent people from being born with avatars for a while.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                    To be fair the progenitors have been trying to work on a way to prevent people from being born with avatars for a while.
                    That never made too much sense to me, which is probably why they never raised that issue again (also, when the techies became a playable faction, they toned down their evilness a little bit... And I guess that is one of the evilst things that players can conceive)

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                    • #11
                      most likely the no-avatars progenitor project was made by low ranking members of the convention. that is, those who don;t realise they are mages. presumabely their masters shut it down because they knew it was bullshit.

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                      • #12
                        Anyone with the potential to start it would already be in on the secret. Enlightened personnel are generally speaking AWARE they do something that's 'a distant cousin' of magic. And works in similar ways.

                        My understanding was to preserve a genepool of those who would still have avatars behind closed doors in the Union. Then they don't have to monitor every member of the public for awakenings and the traditions will slowly but surely die off as those who are immortal are killed, and those who are not die of old age.

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                        • #13
                          The problem in cWoD is that removing the Avatar seems to leave a hole that gets filled by something (which means you have to fill in with something before something else does). The project was probably abandoned because the results became Drones or Fomori. Each type of Possessed causes problems for Mages.

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                          • #14
                            Not really, to the hole thing. HITmarks have no avatar and they don't end up possessed very often. Same for Victors.

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