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  • #16
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post
    Also, I'd say the "current" model makes stats way too easy to level up
    I'd say this solely depends on 1) How much XP you dish out, and 2) If you allow people to raise skills they realistically couldn't have raised in between the events of two specific game sessions (And at higher levels including consideration of how much time they'd have to actually invest in-game time between increases of a specific stat in the first place).

    Realtively minimal changes to XP costs are the least controlling factor of how hard and easy it is to level up something. They make the biggest difference only on paper.
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 02-06-2017, 06:55 AM.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

      I'd say this solely depends on 1) How much XP you dish out, and 2) If you allow people to raise skills they realistically couldn't have raised in between the events of two specific game sessions (And at higher levels, how much time they'd have to actually invest in-game time between increases in the first place).

      Realtively minimal changes to XP costs are the least controlling factor of how hard and easy it is to level up something. They make the biggest difference only on paper.
      By that logic, this entire thread is irrelevant.

      XP is immaterial, and it's all up to ST fiat.


      Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Saikou View Post
        By that logic, this entire thread is irrelevant.
        XP is immaterial, and it's all up to ST fiat.
        Not really. The (steady) stream of XP still provides the pulse and baseline of wether the character is at all ready to learn something new in a general sense. The other half of the equation is the ST fiat of deciding wether the character is ready to actually learn what the player wants to spend those XP into.

        If you go purely by XP as a guideline, some players make you you end up with videogame-like moments of miraculous epiphanies, where characters suddenly have skills they did not have before out of the blue. Because those last fights and long travels through the umbra in the last sessions somehow taught them more about computers.

        If you go purely by ST fiat without XP, you end up with the sole burden of tracking and decision making resting on the ST, and no way for the players to visualize their progress since the last raise. It leads to endless back and forth discussions, takes effort to keep things fair, and ends up in a mess unless you have really, really good ST and equally good roleplayers all around the table. It can work. it probably won't.

        So yes, you need a mixture of both in order for things to work well and make it easier on everybody, while also making sure things stay somewhat coherent in an in-game sense.


        >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
        >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

          Not really. The (steady) stream of XP still provides the pulse and baseline of wether the character is at all ready to learn something new in a general sense. The other half of the equation is the ST fiat of deciding wether the character is ready to actually learn what the player wants to spend those XP into.

          If you go purely by XP as a guideline, some players make you you end up with videogame-like moments of miraculous epiphanies, where characters suddenly have skills they did not have before out of the blue. Because those last fights and long travels through the umbra in the last sessions somehow taught them more about computers.

          If you go purely by ST fiat without XP, you end up with the sole burden of tracking and decision making resting on the ST, and no way for the players to visualize their progress since the last raise. It leads to endless back and forth discussions, takes effort to keep things fair, and ends up in a mess unless you have really, really good ST and equally good roleplayers all around the table. It can work. it probably won't.

          So yes, you need a mixture of both in order for things to work well and make it easier on everybody, while also making sure things stay somewhat coherent in an in-game sense.
          And this makes the threads question of "how much is a 1st level background, and the subsequent disccudion of current vs new not irrelevant... how?


          Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Saikou View Post
            And this makes the threads question of "how much is a 1st level background, and the subsequent disccudion of current vs new not irrelevant... how?
            ...because I am not the OP? I can't decide how they (or others) will or will not run their game at the end, and can only voice my opinions and give pro and contra suggestions based on on how I handle and experienced things?


            >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
            >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Remulader View Post
              The character progress section in the core book has a sidebar about buying background dots at current rate * 3 exp. Assuming you allow players to purchase backgrounds with exp, what is the cost of the first dot?


              To help answer the original question,

              Assuming you are going with the definition of 'current' as being what you currently have, and 'new' being the rating that is you are trying to get (which is how I read those defined terms), then I would recommend the following

              New Background (i.e. getting the 1st dot in a background): 4 XP
              Raising Background: Current x3 XP (so getting the 2nd dot would be 3 XP, 3rd would be 6 XP, etc)
              If the Background would cost double Background points during character creation, then the XP cost is also doubled.

              That said, I am a firm believer is that a player has to justify spending XP and some backgrounds should not be raised at all, but that is a decision for your game. Your mileage may vary.
              Last edited by tzizimine; 02-06-2017, 05:47 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Saikou View Post

                Call me old fashioned, but I think Backgrounds should be roleplayed first, leveled up second. It really make no sense at all to allow a player to "buy" a 1 point Node background, a 1 point Legend background, or a 1 dot Past Life background, for example.

                Similarly, it makes no sense for you to be able to level up backgrounds like Mentor, Resources, Arcane, Allies, Dream, etc...
                I'd say for my players to update their backgrounds like this, they'd need to find a node, or make their current node more powerful, earn those extra resources (either legitimately or not), gain allies, go on spirit quests for the Dream.

                For things like Avatar, make them go on a mini-seeking. For things like Past Life, let it be as a result of a soul searching spirit quest. For Mentor, have them do stuff which would make their mentor rise in significance.

                If you have to attach Exp points to it, then do so in addition to these roleplay bits, not as a replacement.
                I don't see why. Leveling up resources, you go the extra mile to put in more at work and get a raise as a result. Or a promotion. Or a new contract for the self employed. Allies, you go the extra mile and try to expand your influence in the given area. Spending experience is shorthand for those things since every moment of your life is not 'on camera' Honestly the only one I'd say is odd are those like Node or Mentor. And you're strictly not allowed to level Avatar after char gen.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                  I don't think that's a real good analogy, comparing it to general levels of schools.
                  Except for Knowledge Abilities, this is exactly what the book does. Going from Computers 1 to Computers 2 is not compared to an undergrad moving from 100 level classes to 200 level classes. It is compared to moving from what a high-school graduate would know, to what a college graduate would know. That's explicitly how the books break it down.

                  I completely get the the issue with 100 level courses laying down groundwork concepts can be much rougher on students than 200 level courses that get more into application of those concepts. Though IME there's also a good deal of coupling with the adjustment of moving into higher education going on, a senior or adult going back to school is likely to have much less issues in a 100 level course than a freshman because they've already gained a lot of the "how to college" skills that the lack of impedes freshmen. And then 300 and 400 levels grow increasing more difficult and intense. The combination of conceptual base-line knowledge with practical experience that creates the, "Oh, now I get it!" moments are only part of the process that actually gets you to your next dot.

                  This is why I said I get that there's an emotional resonance to the "polish" way of thinking. The problem is that the dots in the system are significant broader. The way the dot levels are described the "polish" point is in the middle of the learning process to get a new dot, not the end of any point of the dots.

                  For magic, look at what the dots do. Forces 2 is not a polishing of what what Forces 1 lets you do. It is a vast expansion of possibilities. You've moved from perceiving the true way energy moves in the universe, to being able to start directly manipulating it.

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                  • #24
                    Thought I'd quote this Q&A bit from Mage Storyteller's Handbook pp.15-16

                    "The experience rules say "new rating x" for Mage, but they're "current rating" in the other games. This is a mistake, right?

                    No. As Justin Achilli explained during development of Vampire Revised, he'd always understood "current rating" to mean "rating you're currently buying." It makes more sense to some people that learning more of a skill (the second dot) is harder than learning the rudimentary basics (the first dot) instead of the other way around, which was a strange artifact of the old system. It also seemed appropriate for Mage, but the new wording was adopted to make it clearer.
                    Of course, you're always free to use whatever experience system floats your boat, so you can use "current" if you like. You should probably use the same "current" or "new" definition for all characters in your game, just so your players don't beat you up.
                    Ethan Skemp preferred the "current rating" system and left it intact in Werewolf Revised."

                    So the official word is it comes down to preference.
                    You can use whatever analogy you like to justify your preference, but the original intent was for it to mean "new".
                    Last edited by Saikou; 02-06-2017, 06:59 PM.


                    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                      So the official word is it comes down to preference.
                      In Revised. 20th went back to the actual original intent (even if I don't like that).

                      You can use whatever analogy you like to justify your preference, but the original intent was for it to mean "new".
                      No. The original intent from 1991 (not 1999) was for current to mean "current rating you have," which is why Justin referred to it as the cost being higher for the first dot as an "artifact of the old system."

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                        In Revised. 20th went back to the actual original intent (even if I don't like that).

                        No. The original intent from 1991 (not 1999) was for current to mean "current rating you have," which is why Justin referred to it as the cost being higher for the first dot as an "artifact of the old system."

                        Then please explain this line "Justin Achilli explained during development of Vampire Revised, he'd always understood "current rating" to mean "rating you're currently buying."


                        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

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                        • #27
                          Justin isn't a founding member of the company. He didn't develop 1e or 2e WoD. He started working for it during 2e, and took over VtM in Revised. For perspective, Ethan worked at the original WW for just as long, and held the opposite position during the Revised era.

                          The explanation is that Justin interpreted it in a way that the original designers didn't intend, as evidence by the phrasing of it as an artifact of the older versions of the system.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            Justin isn't a founding member of the company. He didn't develop 1e or 2e WoD. He started working for it during 2e, and took over VtM in Revised. For perspective, Ethan worked at the original WW for just as long, and held the opposite position during the Revised era.

                            The explanation is that Justin interpreted it in a way that the original designers didn't intend, as evidence by the phrasing of it as an artifact of the older versions of the system.
                            Ok.

                            So I'd say, like anything that started out in 1st ed, it was improved to something that made more sense.

                            I still say is if 2nd rank costs less than 1st rank, there's something wrong with the way things are prioritised.
                            Last edited by Saikou; 02-06-2017, 11:36 PM.


                            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

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                            • #29
                              Hey, you don't need to sell me on that. I like new better. I've also come to like flat even better. I just think it's important to be clear about what the RAW are, and then we can discuss the merits of keeping them vs. house rules.

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