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Do people use Abilities Enhancing Magic every single time they use magic?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    (1) I was building things up from the ground logically. I read what you wrote. I was just stating what I thought about it all.
    Okay, at this point what's at heart here is beyond clear.

    1. You actually have no idea how physically intense yoga actually is, and from that

    2. You don't personally consider yoga an athletic pursuit.

    As someone who does yoga, I can only tell you that you are categorically incorrect, and based upon that misconception your opinion of it is entirely unfounded. Alas, it seems not only are you unwilling to budge on this misconception, you refuse to entertain the notion you may have misconceptions in the first place. From this, there's simply no point continuing this discussion, but I will say I hope in the future you educate yourself a bit, try it out even, and come back to this conversation in retrospect once you have corrected those misconceptions on your own time.

    That said, closing notes:

    So, another ad hoc justification for why yoga isn't athletic, is "you have to warm up"? By this logic, no sport or physical activity is athletic as every athlete, or even normal person before exercise (if they know how to actually exercise without incurring self-injury), warms up before physical activity. And even then, the more physically conditioned a person is, they'll have to warm up less and faster. And, if they for whatever reason must engage in physical activity, they can do more without warming up, and at lower risk of injury, due to that conditioning.

    And guess what, yogis are no different. I don't have the flexibility, strength, or balance to get into expert positions or do expert sequences, but I can do moderate-difficulty stuff after warming up, and indeed I can go from sitting to doing a Sun Salutation without warming up. Because I've been doing it long enough to have built the strength, flexibility, and balance.

    Meanwhile, you still cling to the "XP/dot tax" despite conceding, here, the existence of the complimentary rolls rule. And ignoring the fact, as I stated earlier, you can't swing a dead cat in MtA without hitting an XP break for attributes, abilities, even spheres. Nor paying anything more than lip service to the multitudes of ways to maximize the impact of smaller dice pools, like the "magick enhancing abilities" rule. All of which trivialize this "XP/dot tax" about which you keep harping.

    Yet, you've conceded ST's are well within their rights to demand players redistribute dots if they've made unrealistic characters. Just not in this particular case, apparently, in your personal opinion based upon misconceptions I've (pun unintended) bent over backwards to point out. All to justify, and here's the punchline, a character concept -- a yogi that apparently does no other forms of exercise, yet somehow retains a couch potato physicality despite having a guru's expertise, and may or may not have physical primaries to somehow justify a couch potato physicality -- which is such a fringe case it falls squarely into the "unrealistic character" category.

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    • #32
      All I can say is that I have a friend who has what you could call Yoga 2, and a friend with what you could call Athletics 2, based on descriptions, with roughly equivalent 'physical stats'. The latter can do a press-up effortlessly without warning or a warm-up. The former needs to sit down and stretch. There is a fundamental difference, at least for some Yoga practitioners. You can posture and claim I don't know what I'm talking about, but it doesn't take a genius to see that knowledge and skill in Yoga doesn't necessarily have to come with rapid, in the moment, 3 second turns Athletics.

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      • #33
        Sorry but arguing about dots in Athletics is pointless, almost every player character is going to have some dots in Athletics simply so that they can avoid the occasional attack. This is why Dodge and Athletics were rolled into one for the 20th anniversary editions - everyone takes Dodge and someone with a concept that includes Athletics is penalised for buying a skill that has limited application.

        For fairness sake we have to assume that each and every skill in the game should be worth as much as each other skill, otherwise the design of the game is broken (to a greater or lesser extent) and some players will end up with 'better' characters simply because their concept fits the 'best' skills. I'm excluding characters that are deliberately gimped of course.

        That assumption is why we call requiring buying one skill in order to have another a 'tax' - it's not fair if the Computer skill is used only for routine computing tasks and the Science (computer) knowledge is used for anything esoteric. Drive is used for routine driving tasks but requiring Knowledge (heavy goods vehicles) in order to drive trucks at all would be unfair whereas saying that Drive 4 with a specialisation in heavy goods vehicles is required to safely drive a truck is not (especially as you could probably get a truck moving even with Drive 1).

        Similarly the skill points costs is based on the same principle - having four dots in one skill costs more points so should be worth more than having two dots in two skills - it is unfair if Computer 2 with Science (computer) 2 at a total cost of 10 xp is more useful than Computer 4 at a cost of 15 xp.

        If you're requiring equal levels of Computer and Science (computer) to accomplish a given tasks then that effectively means Computer is a skill that costs twice as much as others! Is it twice as effective as others? If you're playing it as if it is then you're probably playing it against the intended design

        There are plenty of ways to give ridiculously specific examples that are totally unfair from one point of view but put simply: imposing a cost on a selected set of tasks within the game is unfair to the players wishing to attempt those tasks when other tasks are cheaper. By doing so you are indirectly forcing players into a certain playstyle. Especially when the selected tasks are based on personal bias.
        Last edited by Dogstar; 02-15-2017, 07:39 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
          Yet, you've conceded ST's are well within their rights to demand players redistribute dots if they've made unrealistic characters. Just not in this particular case, apparently, in your personal opinion based upon misconceptions I've (pun unintended) bent over backwards to point out. All to justify, and here's the punchline, a character concept -- a yogi that apparently does no other forms of exercise, yet somehow retains a couch potato physicality despite having a guru's expertise, and may or may not have physical primaries to somehow justify a couch potato physicality -- which is such a fringe case it falls squarely into the "unrealistic character" category.
          Hey, now, that's entirely realistic!

          They're clearly formerly an expendable purpose-built infiltrator construct designed to 'pass' in a class long enough to get alone with the teacher and assassinate them. They have Yoga 5, Athletics 0 because their designer downloaded the specialist knowledge but didn't have the funding to add anything else to the instinct package. And had very peculiar views on optimizing capabilities.

          See? Entirely reasonable in-character backstory that fits the setting.

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