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  • #91
    I agree, though I would add that Linear Magic should be considered to exploit the fundamental rules of Reality while Dynamic Magick should be considered to break the fundamental rules of Reality (coincidental effects align with Reality while vulgar effects violate Reality). Personally, I like that Sorcerers are not as powerful as other supernatural creatures, and I do not think that Numina should be equal to the powers of the major supernatural creatures because Sorcerers are humans. Numina should probably be around one level less powerful than the powers of other supernatural creatures because humans just do not have the innate capabilities of other supernatural creatures (Changelings have the Dreaming, Fera have the Pact, Kindred have the Blood, etc).

    The fun of playing Sorcerers is that you are humans facing inhuman monsters (whether the inhuman monsters are Changelings, Mages, or Vampires really does not matter). Sorcerers need to depend on the group for survival because no single person in the group can take on even the weakest of supernatural creatures. Instead, groups of Sorcerers tend to be groups of specialists that each give their group a vital edge in the fight against other supernatural creatures (or which give other supernatural creatures a reason to hire Sorcerers).

    I could see a cWoD where Sorcerers end up being the negotiators and the facilitators of the supernatural world. While they are individually less powerful than any major supernatural creature, they have useful powers, they are numerous, and they have human desires and motivations. In some of my campaigns, the members of the local Sorcerer communities managed to unite together to become their own local supernatural factions and, as the average major metropolitan area had hundreds of Sorcerers of each of the three major focuses (Mythic, Psychic, and Technological), they ended up running the local supernatural scene because none of the major supernatural creatures possessed sufficient desire to stop them.

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    • #92
      For the little it may count for, I'll preface this by saying that I don't disagree with everything you stated. I agree mostly with the first sentence (on what Linear and Dynamic reality should be).
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      Personally, I like that Sorcerers are not as powerful as other supernatural creatures, and I do not think that Numina should be equal to the powers of the major supernatural creatures because Sorcerers are humans. Numina should probably be around one level less powerful than the powers of other supernatural creatures because humans just do not have the innate capabilities of other supernatural creatures (Changelings have the Dreaming, Fera have the Pact, Kindred have the Blood, etc).
      So while Sorcerers lack the innate abilities of the other Splats, I don't agree that they're less powerful. In general, the level 5s (and 6s especially) of their Paths tend to be much more power than what most of the "major" Supernaturals have access to. I'd put them above any level 5 Discipline, and above most level 5 Gifts (the "normal" player limits). Mages are the only ones that tend to go above that, but in my (albeit limited) experience Mage players typically don't get to 5s anyways.

      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      The fun of playing Sorcerers is that you are humans facing inhuman monsters (whether the inhuman monsters are Changelings, Mages, or Vampires really does not matter). Sorcerers need to depend on the group for survival because no single person in the group can take on even the weakest of supernatural creatures. Instead, groups of Sorcerers tend to be groups of specialists that each give their group a vital edge in the fight against other supernatural creatures (or which give other supernatural creatures a reason to hire Sorcerers).
      It is worth noting that at this point, you seem to be telling other people how they should be having fun playing a Sorcerer. I certainly don't agree, and I'd wager there are others that don't as well (but would never presume to talk for anyone else). Your view of the WoD seems (from previous threads) to have Sorcerer mercenaries around every corner (or at least in most cities), assisting the "real" Supernatural players (not players as in PCs, but "players" as in the movers and shakers of the Supernatural world).

      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      I could see a cWoD where Sorcerers end up being the negotiators and the facilitators of the supernatural world. While they are individually less powerful than any major supernatural creature, they have useful powers, they are numerous, and they have human desires and motivations. In some of my campaigns, the members of the local Sorcerer communities managed to unite together to become their own local supernatural factions and, as the average major metropolitan area had hundreds of Sorcerers of each of the three major focuses (Mythic, Psychic, and Technological), they ended up running the local supernatural scene because none of the major supernatural creatures possessed sufficient desire to stop them.
      Yea...your game doesn't seem to reflect the WoD as written in any way, shape or form. If there were as many Sorcerers as you present, then they would be a major force in the WoD. You just said "hundreds of Sorcerers of each of the three major focuses", meaning at least 600? With numbers like that of even quasi-supernaturals they can and should wipe out the major factions (including Mages) at their whim.


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      • #93
        The majority of Sorcerers are just going to have one level in a Numina. I would suggest that the majority of doctoral-level scientists in cWoD have a minimum of one level of Technological Numina, usually Alchemy (Experimental Chemistry), Divination (Statistical Analysis), Enchantment (Experimental Engineering), Fascination (Applied Psychology), Fortune (Probabilitistic Forecasting), or Healing (Experimental Medicine). When you add them to the people with just one level of Mythic Numina or Psychic Numina, they probably make up a substantial population.

        The characters from Hedge Wizard's Handbook and Sorcerer: Revised are probably the top ten percent of Sorcerers. The problem is that they lack the combat capabilities of major supernatural creatures. Ten sorcerers might be able to take out one Garou, but they would die against a pack of five Garou. Five sorcerers might be able to take out one Kindred, but they would die against five Kindred. Even against Changeling and Mages, they should have a two-to-one numerical advantage to have a chance at success.

        In addition, Mythic Numina and Technological Numina are slow, one turn of casting per level of effect, so Sorcerers cannot depend on them for combat. Yes, Sorcerers can hang one spell without taking too severe of a penalty, but it costs them one point of Willpower to do so. Sorcerers can get one good turn in combat before they end up getting turned into chowder if they forget they are mortal.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
          The majority of Sorcerers are just going to have one level in a Numina. I would suggest that the majority of doctoral-level scientists in cWoD have a minimum of one level of Technological Numina, usually Alchemy (Experimental Chemistry), Divination (Statistical Analysis), Enchantment (Experimental Engineering), Fascination (Applied Psychology), Fortune (Probabilitistic Forecasting), or Healing (Experimental Medicine). When you add them to the people with just one level of Mythic Numina or Psychic Numina, they probably make up a substantial population.

          The characters from Hedge Wizard's Handbook and Sorcerer: Revised are probably the top ten percent of Sorcerers. The problem is that they lack the combat capabilities of major supernatural creatures. Ten sorcerers might be able to take out one Garou, but they would die against a pack of five Garou. Five sorcerers might be able to take out one Kindred, but they would die against five Kindred. Even against Changeling and Mages, they should have a two-to-one numerical advantage to have a chance at success.

          In addition, Mythic Numina and Technological Numina are slow, one turn of casting per level of effect, so Sorcerers cannot depend on them for combat. Yes, Sorcerers can hang one spell without taking too severe of a penalty, but it costs them one point of Willpower to do so. Sorcerers can get one good turn in combat before they end up getting turned into chowder if they forget they are mortal.
          The best bet is to use powers which are combat-friendly. Hellfire is 1 turn no matter what level you use. Enchantments and Potions are great; you can get nigh-unbreakable armour which adds 3 to soak, and lets you use your Stamina to soak the damage (unless you take a huge amount of damage and it breaks through the armour). So a Sorcerer with Stamina 5 (great for long rituals) can wear Alchemy 3 derived Armour, and get a soak pool of 8 against most damage (except for things like electricity, poison gas, that sort of thing).

          Get Me The Hell Out Of Here is a great ritual, you can have it resting in the background at all times, ready to take you back to a specific location (as long as it's within range), which can allow for a hasty escape from combat. Plus there are rules for Fast-Casting, so it's not like it's impossible to teleport away using Conveyance (for example).

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          • #95
            Hellfire is not always 1 turn (Level of effect, meaning casting time, determines maximum damage, range, area, and special effect). Yes, you could potentially cast a level one effect every other turn (one turn to prepare and one turn to fire because you have aim the attack with a Dexterity plus Melee roll), but it would be a horrible waste of Willpower (you have to cast spells as if they were two levels higher, in difficulty and in time, to waive the Willpower cost). Hellfire is much less effective than modern guns unless you prepare ahead of time.

            Alchemy 3 only produces alloys that give one extra die of bashing and lethal soak (I really do not know where you get three extra dice of bashing and lethal soak from) and the unbreakable nature of products from Enchantment 2 does not grant any extra protection to the wearer (though I imagine you could use Enchantment to give extra dice of soak against specific threats). Alchemy 3 could potentially create a potion that would give its user the Legendary Attribute Merit for one scene (which would be able to give the person drinking it the ability to soak any damage), but you are talking about a base of 3 days of preparation and one point of temporary Willpower for one scene of combat effectiveness. If you want a combat Sorcerer, it is much more cost effective to purchase the Legendary Attribute Merit for Stamina during character creation.

            Get Me The Hell Out of Here is a good Ritual, but it takes 10 minutes to cast, so you generally have to hang the spell to have a combat benefit (though you could use it for a jailbreak). Fast-Casting costs an additional point of temporary Willpower and +1 difficulty per turn shaved off the time. Yes, you could potentially teleport away with Conveyance, but you would have to be very skilled or very lucky to achieve a one turn effect for anything beyond 100 feet because you will likely suffer 'traveling while being observed' difficulty penalty during a combat teleport.

            I am not saying that Numina are not cool and I am not saying that Sorcerers are not effective, but you have to modify the basic rules a lot to make them half as combat capable as any major supernatural creature except Mages. Even Changeling (because of Calling the Wyrd and Dragon's Ire) are much more combat effective than Sorcerers, and that is without using their Arts and Realms. Since Sorcerers have superior counterspells, they can potentially be as combat effective as Mages, but they are going to be spending most of their combat casting counterspells against their Mage opponent (and just playing the waiting game until their Mage opponent botches themselves to death).

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            • #96
              Aya Tari Well, a few points. The description of Hellfire states that all effects are Instant. I read that as all spells in Hellfire take 1 turn, you cast it and then aim with Dexterity + Melee (should be Athletics or Occult). So all Hellfire effects take one turn, unless you want to take extra turns to get ready. So a Sorcerer waiting in ambush can spill water on the floor and get a Damage 5, Area 1, Target 1 Shock spell ready, knowing that the water will give it extra Area and they only need to touch the water, letting them spend ALL of their successes on the damage and making it Aggravated. Remember that every Path except Weather Control you get 1 automatic success for your dots in the Path, with the exception of when you fail or botch.

              Also, Mages are highly reliant on Quintessence, and Mana Manipulation can destroy it at a 2 to 1 basis, so in 1-3 turns a Sorcerer can strip a Mage of their Quintessence while keeping up counter-magic. If they're very good they could even absorb it and turn it into Mana, and at level 5 you can add your Mana to counterspells for a Scene, making them very, very magic-resistant. The Sorcerer can block any form of magic which they can perceive, and with Mana Manipulation 2 they can see the movements of magical energies (Magick, Sorcery, Vitae Expenditure, Glamour), so it wouldn't even be that hard.

              So, someone with Mana Manipulation who won imitative against a Mage, had their Mana fully charged and was tactical in their use of Mana, Countermagick and their other skills... I can see them reducing their opponent to a mundane wreck quite quickly. I see a master of magick crying with frustration as the annoying Sorcerer blocks all of their magickal attacks and even their more subtle spells.

              Then a Lupine appears and they're both dead in seconds, so it's all relative.

              For context, all of this would depend on the Sorcerer having Mana Manipulation 5, since that would let them cast level 3 and lower effects for 0 Willpower simply by increasing the difficulty by 1. They'd then have to fast-cast, meaning that level 2 spells would be 3 + 4 + 1+ 1 = difficulty 9. But with a single success they'd have 6 successes, and Mana Manipulation 3 is practically useless anyways so you can ignore those powers. Then you just watch for the flow of magick and actively counter-spell everything, using your own turns to build up a level 5 power which will devote all of your Mana to your counter-magick pool, following up with a level 4 effect to refill from the environment and then another level 4 effect to strip away their Quintessence (if they haven't used it all up).
              Last edited by 11twiggins; 02-11-2017, 12:10 PM.

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              • #97
                The Duration of Hellfire is Instant because it is an attack, but the Time to Cast is normal (there is nothing in the description of Hellfire that suggests that you get to reduce the Time to Cast and, if you can find such an exception, please share the page number). Mana Manipulation 4 may strip Quintessence from Mages, but it takes four turns to cast the level 4 effect and costs one point of temporary Willpower. Mana Manipulation 5 may increase counterspell, but it takes five turns to cast and costs one point of temporary Willpower.

                Casting without spending Willpower requires an effect two levels higher than the normal level of the effect (Revised, pp. 62-63), so it takes more time and is more difficult. The difficulty for fast-casting an instant level 4 effect (a level 2 effect with no Willpower cost) would be 8 (base 4 plus 4 for the modified effect) and would take an extra point of temporary Willpower and +3 difficulty to reduce the casting time to one turn (the final difficulty would be 9 minus two successes). Fast-casting Numina is rarely effective.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  Aya Tari[...]Then you just watch for the flow of magick and actively counter-spell everything, using your own turns to build up a level 5 power which will devote all of your Mana to your counter-magick pool, following up with a level 4 effect to refill from the environment and then another level 4 effect to strip away their Quintessence (if they haven't used it all up).
                  Last I checked a Counterspell requires an action, like a dodge.
                  Granted, RAW a sorcerer build for it can counter magick like crazy, but your scenario is crazy itself.


                  So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Nonsense View Post

                    Last I checked a Counterspell requires an action, like a dodge.
                    Granted, RAW a sorcerer build for it can counter magick like crazy, but your scenario is crazy itself.
                    From my understanding, Night-folk reflexively roll counter-magick like Soak, not a Dodge. So by the default rules, even the most base Brujah Neonate with Wits 1 and Occult 1, and no clue about magic (just a rough understanding of the basic concepts of the supernatural) rolls 2 dice at difficulty 7 to soak Magick. Sorcerers do the same, but inevitably have high levels of Occult and decent Wits, and can augment this "soak" further with some powers such as Mana Manipulation. Like I'm pretty sure that M20's counter-magick is similar to Soak, not Dodge, but correct me if I'm wrong.

                    The Scenarios presented are always dumb. I'm saying that this could happen, not that it would happen or even should happen. If a Sorcerer with Mana Manipulation faces off against most Mages, and wins Initiative, and the dice rolls go their way, there's a possibility that they could simply counter every spell their opponent attempts. But this relies on the Mage getting fewer successes, the Sorcerer succeeding on the Mana Manipulation rolls, the Mage not having any special tricks prepared... you get the idea. But with that said, the Sorcerer can just turn up with a "damage opponent's energy source" spell prepared as a Hung spell, with 20 or so successes in the bag, ready to remove 10 point of Gnosis or Blood or Mana or Quintessence or Glamour from whoever they drop the spell on. Mages rely heavily on Quintessence, so you can see why I'm leaning slightly towards Sorcerers in a 1 vs. 1 (with that said I know that things could go horribly wrong for the Sorcerer, I'm just trying to build the case, I don't necessarily believe that the Sorcerer is innately better equipped or anything).

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                    • No, Sorcerer countermagic specifically takes an action (it is a defense, like a dodge, not a resistance, like a soak). And I have never had Mages be dependent on Quintessence in my games because it was difficult to gain Quintessence. In my games, Nodes could generate a maximum of ten points of Quintessence per level per week (Revised, p. 122), which is generous by Revised rules, and unclaimed Nodes were rare (each character could contribute one Background point for a shared Node). My characters thought themselves lucky if they got ten points Quintessence a week. In addition, personal Quintessence (the amount stored by the Avatar) cannot be stolen by magic (Revised, 127-128), so that prepared Quintessence drain attack would be useless against most Mages.

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                      • Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        The majority of Sorcerers are just going to have one level in a Numina. I would suggest that the majority of doctoral-level scientists in cWoD have a minimum of one level of Technological Numina, usually Alchemy (Experimental Chemistry), Divination (Statistical Analysis), Enchantment (Experimental Engineering), Fascination (Applied Psychology), Fortune (Probabilitistic Forecasting), or Healing (Experimental Medicine). When you add them to the people with just one level of Mythic Numina or Psychic Numina, they probably make up a substantial population.
                        Um, sorcerers for character creation are given 6 points of numina, so I'd assume that's the average level. Besides, considering how sorcery and numina paths are spread accross splats and how many organizations there are(shih, project x, the arcaneum, supernaturally aware government agencies) I'm sure there are standardized research and study procedures for becoming a sorcerer for those with potential. I'd go so far as to include all types of human numina existing to some extent in each organization as modern conveniences and political alliances mean information and people with information on the supernatural are easier to come by for the people who know where to look, just look at the real life deep web.

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                        • I agree that Sorcerers are less rare than many people think, but there is a difference between dabblers and practitioners. Dabblers are mortals who purchase Numina and Rituals with freebie points, which make them a type of 'lesser sorcerer', which is the type I was talking about (you can find the details in Ascension's Right Hand, Demon Hunter X, Unsung Heroes, etc). Practitioners are given levels of Numina and Rituals, making them a type of 'greater sorcerer', to make them effective characters in crossover games (you can find the details in Hedge Wizards Handbook or Sorcerer: Revised). I think that dabbles are probably much more common than practitioners.

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                          • Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                            I agree that Sorcerers are less rare than many people think, but there is a difference between dabblers and practitioners. Dabblers are mortals who purchase Numina and Rituals with freebie points, which make them a type of 'lesser sorcerer', which is the type I was talking about (you can find the details in Ascension's Right Hand, Demon Hunter X, Unsung Heroes, etc). Practitioners are given levels of Numina and Rituals, making them a type of 'greater sorcerer', to make them effective characters in crossover games (you can find the details in Hedge Wizards Handbook or Sorcerer: Revised). I think that dabbles are probably much more common than practitioners.
                            I think dabblers would be more in line with hunters hunted characters. People who've never considered or looked for the supernatural before finding something that thrusts them into the middle of it. People who are in an organization like the arcaneum would be given access to teachers, materials and the collected research of their colleagues, So I'd imagine they'd pick up the standard 6 dots a creation easily.

                            It mostly comes down to if we're talking about joe shmoe who once got attacked by a random neonate and is now hunting vampires with his dad's old shotgun, or john smith a decent agent assigned to the supernatural law and investigation agency.

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                            • Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                              I think dabblers would be more in line with hunters hunted characters. People who've never considered or looked for the supernatural before finding something that thrusts them into the middle of it. People who are in an organization like the arcaneum would be given access to teachers, materials and the collected research of their colleagues, So I'd imagine they'd pick up the standard 6 dots a creation easily.

                              It mostly comes down to if we're talking about joe shmoe who once got attacked by a random neonate and is now hunting vampires with his dad's old shotgun, or john smith a decent agent assigned to the supernatural law and investigation agency.
                              I love games where Joe and John are both in the Coterie. How do you deal with that? John is a trained marksman, knows how to set up a wire tap or plant bugs, he has a keen sense for danger... Joe on the other hand has some random gift that makes up for him being a bit of an Average Joe. Maybe he has some bizarre resistance to Discipline powers, maybe he has a Vampire Sense, maybe he has a Guardian Spirit or a Psychic Power.

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