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  • #46
    In most of cWoD, science works like it does in the real world (it might work because there are spirits of scientific principles making it work, but they tend to be accurate and reliable, so we do not need to quibble over the details). Yes, cWoD is very much an animist reality, where everything literally possesses a spirit, but that is just an emergent function of reality.

    Why does gravity work? Well, in our reality, there is no firm reasons, just a lot of hypotheses that involve kilometers of equations and requests for more funding. In cWoD, it is probably because there are species of gravity spirits making sure that the laws of gravity created by the Weaver continue to operate. When Mages defy those laws outside of the allowed exceptions, the Gafflings of Gravity probably scream for the Pattern Spiders and Paradox Spirits to smack the Mage down.

    One of the weird aspects of Mage is that it makes science into magic while the rest of cWoD attempts to make magic into science. Even the Dreaming obeys stricter rules than the apparent subjective of reality under Mage, which is one of the reasons why subjective perceptions make more sense than subjective reality. It is Occam's Razor.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      Why does gravity work? Well, in our reality, there is no firm reasons, just a lot of hypotheses that involve kilometers of equations and requests for more funding.
      In our reality there very much is an explanation for how gravity works - we just don't know it, because as we learn more about the world we find the limits of applicability of the old theories and have to develop new ones to patch the holes. Both Newton's and Einstein's models of gravity work - the modeling of gravity as a force derived from mass produces sufficiently accurate results in the everyday setting, and modeling of gravity as the distortion of space-time produces sufficiently accurate results at very high speed. General Theory of Relativity works. It describes how electricity works, and it is used to make your GPS more accurate and nuclear power plants less explody. But then we figured out quantum mechanics and it turned out that the general theory of relativity doesn't apply there very well. And so the scientists are working on developing a new theory that would explain gravity in quantum context.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        In most of cWoD, science works like it does in the real world (it might work because there are spirits of scientific principles making it work, but they tend to be accurate and reliable, so we do not need to quibble over the details). Yes, cWoD is very much an animist reality, where everything literally possesses a spirit, but that is just an emergent function of reality.

        Why does gravity work? Well, in our reality, there is no firm reasons, just a lot of hypotheses that involve kilometers of equations and requests for more funding. In cWoD, it is probably because there are species of gravity spirits making sure that the laws of gravity created by the Weaver continue to operate. When Mages defy those laws outside of the allowed exceptions, the Gafflings of Gravity probably scream for the Pattern Spiders and Paradox Spirits to smack the Mage down.

        One of the weird aspects of Mage is that it makes science into magic while the rest of cWoD attempts to make magic into science. Even the Dreaming obeys stricter rules than the apparent subjective of reality under Mage, which is one of the reasons why subjective perceptions make more sense than subjective reality. It is Occam's Razor.
        You are absolutely right. I don't understand Aya, you DO understand that this is how the Mage scenario works, so why don't you accept it? It seems to me that you know that Mage is subjective, animist, that there are tiny "subatomic" "spirits of breathing", for example, that exist for the sole purpose of garanteeing that O2 will turn into CO2 inside our cells... And a Mage turning O2 into napalm will make the "breathing gafflings" furious. That's probably the way the scenario works. And you know it. But you just don't like it that way... Which is fine, as long as you agree it is your way of seeing things, and not how the game is built.

        By the way, it's REALLY weird to see the guys who like the Traditions better to say the WoD is objective and that Science is real, while the Technocrats among us keep defending the subjective reality of things and that science is a hoax... That is... Paradoxal...

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        • #49
          Yes, that is an essential paradox of Mage. In essence, the 'Scientific' Mages believe that science is not science, that objective reality and the scientific method are delusions, and that paradoxically their perceptions of reality are objective. By contrast, the 'Mystical' Mages tend to believe that magic is scientific (they are interested in accuracy and replicability), believe in an objective reality but accept that their perceptions are subjective, and use a form of scientific method in their magic (their Paradigms tend to use traditional methods because they have been proven to be accurate and valid through centuries of experimentation).

          It really does not matter if the laws of reality are governed by mechanistic principles or animistic principles, what matter is that their description is accurate and replicable. There would not be subatomic spirits of breathing, Gafflings of Breathing would manage the functions of reservation in any area with sufficient oxygen to support life. The mechanism that they would regulate would be the exchange of oxygen with carbon dioxide in the blood stream.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            One of the weird aspects of Mage is that it makes science into magic while the rest of cWoD attempts to make magic into science. Even the Dreaming obeys stricter rules than the apparent subjective of reality under Mage, which is one of the reasons why subjective perceptions make more sense than subjective reality. It is Occam's Razor.
            Occam's Razor isn't a tool for finding the truth, it is a tool for finding the simplest answer to test. Simpler answers frequently aren't correct. And since we are talking about a game world that is explicitly strange and hard to quantify, how are you even testing?

            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

            In our reality there very much is an explanation for how gravity works - we just don't know it, because as we learn more about the world we find the limits of applicability of the old theories and have to develop new ones to patch the holes. Both Newton's and Einstein's models of gravity work - the modeling of gravity as a force derived from mass produces sufficiently accurate results in the everyday setting, and modeling of gravity as the distortion of space-time produces sufficiently accurate results at very high speed. General Theory of Relativity works. It describes how electricity works, and it is used to make your GPS more accurate and nuclear power plants less explody. But then we figured out quantum mechanics and it turned out that the general theory of relativity doesn't apply there very well. And so the scientists are working on developing a new theory that would explain gravity in quantum context.
            Important question: Just because you can predict something, does that mean your model is actually true? It sounds like a silly question, but it is actually an important one in the philosophy of science.



            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              Yes, that is an essential paradox of Mage. In essence, the 'Scientific' Mages believe that science is not science, that objective reality and the scientific method are delusions, and that paradoxically their perceptions of reality are objective. By contrast, the 'Mystical' Mages tend to believe that magic is scientific (they are interested in accuracy and replicability), believe in an objective reality but accept that their perceptions are subjective, and use a form of scientific method in their magic (their Paradigms tend to use traditional methods because they have been proven to be accurate and valid through centuries of experimentation).
              wat
              Where are you getting this stuff? Since when are ecstatics or akashics interested in accuracy and replicability and Technocrats aren't? Technocracy is literally making magic accurate and replicable by advancing the consensus to include more and more previously non-replicable effects.

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              • #52
                No, truth comes from understanding, not from prediction. Monkeys can predict when fruit will fall from a tree, that does not mean that monkeys understand gravity, so they do not have a true explanation of gravity.

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                • #53
                  Anyone else getting the impression that Aya is working backwards from the premise that "Scientists in Mage are tyrannical and bad", and is shaping all the evidence in order to demonstrate this principle.

                  Effectively, he is doing what he is condemning the technocrats for doing.


                  Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31b: Removed

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Crowley
                    would the consensus and paradox shift depending on the local belief or would be fully locked based on the technocracian consensus?
                    In Revised, he local belief or would be fully locked based on the technocracian consensus, In M20 the consensus and paradox it's going to shift depending on the local belief, which I think it's the way things should have been from the very begining (Local Consensus creates a Reality Zone where the accepted type of magick can work more freely). However, without some seriously Global Consensus you can't make your magick work for non mages.

                    Originally posted by Karlgust
                    That's were you're wrong. Cars and TVs don't need people's beliefs to work; it's not that "people believe in cars", it's just that science (in real world of course) works despite belief. People got used to the technology, but the vast majority doesn't have a clue about how it works. If you start saying people that it works with magic, or that TVs have spirits inside, you can be sure they'll believe that. It's just that there is NO ONE saying such a thing.

                    However, you would be surprised about how many people BELIEVE THAT EARTH IS FLAT... Yes, I'm not joking, several people believe that the Earth has 5.000 years, is a flat disc and a have a bearded giant watching over it beyond the clouds.

                    On the other hand however, only a tiny amount of the humanity truly knows something about protons, neutrons, eletrons, radio waves, photons or anything that would be necessary to understand the magic behind a TV for example.
                    Yes, that's how the real world works, but you're missing a vital piece of mage lore here:

                    For something to be Coincidental or Vulgar / AKA for something to be accepted by the Consensus or not / AKA Believed or not, all that's needed it's for the people to accept that said something works, it doesn't matter how. That's why you can work Coincidental magick even if your Paradigm runs contrary to the local Consensus, as long as you disguise it as something that would be acceptable the Consensus doesn't care about the theory behind your effect.

                    If you have a gun, and you don't have amunition, as long as no one knows you don't have amunition, you can load the gun with Matter 2/ Prime 2 and make it a Coincidence/believable everywhere. It doesn't matter if you loaded it with magick utterances or weird science, as long as it's not obvious what you're doing. The underlying principles that you're using are totally lost to the Consensus.

                    This it's what I'm getting at:

                    While in reality people believes guns works because they "do", in Mage guns didn't worked before...or rather, they *did* work, they worked in the hands of armies of especially trained Citizen.
                    You see, in Mage history, guns *worked despite belief* (as you say), because the Technocracy has pushed an agenda of showing that science *works despite belief*, by using it even when it caused Paradox. This it's why it's believed that *science don't need people's beliefs to work*, it's because, disregarding the belief of people, the Technocracy showed everyone the power of their brand of magick, risking Paradox. Then this generated a snowball, after Europe was sure that science worked, they made colonizations/wars (orchestrated by the Technocracy) and "spreaded the message". Even if native americans didn't believe in obscure principles of chemistry, like "combustion", they still had to believe that guns work, when they where used by the people that already "knew" that guns worked. And that's all that you need for Technocratic Instruments to work almost everywhere.

                    That's why (and how) I can say that "everyone believes in science", even if everyone thinks that "protons, neutrons, eletrons, radio waves, photons or anything that would be necessary to understand the magic behind a TV" are bullshit, and that TV works with voodoo. I can use my Scientific Paradigm freely both ways everywhere .Everyone believes that science works, even when they believe it's because of magic. Since mystic Paradigms aren't that all encompasing, thay aren't that dominant.

                    There's no contradiction, thus, in saying that the pervading Paradigm it's science, even when few people *understand* or *do* science, because for the Consensus all of this it's academical. The Consensus isn't about what's true and what isn't true. It's about what it's possible and what isn't possible, HOW reality works (in a purely instrumental sense), not WHY (the knowledge that explains how the instrument works).

                    But, of course, the Technocracy ain't going to win untill they have eradicated the idea that anyone but them can do magick. They don't need everyone understanding or even believe in the underlying principles of science to do that. They only need for the peasa...er...the Citizens to 1º accept that science works, and 2º that it's the one true way. The first goal has been completed in all but the most remote parts of earth (by showing everyone how well scinece worked in their faces, firing it at them if it was necessary), there's no way to undo that, the second...people refused to stop believing in their ways, and here's where the Traditions can win the Ascencion War.

                    EDIT: To clarify. I'm not saying that "the Technocracy it's evil", just that they did do some ruthless stuff to win (they also showed science in positive ways, risking Paradox while healing or helping people with their cool toys), and it worked to some extent, although not to the extent that they intended.
                    Last edited by Aleph; 02-15-2017, 11:54 AM.

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                    • #55
                      Has anyone mentioned Earthly Foundations and Mythic Threads yet? The former provides a basis for things being true even if everyone says otherwise, and the latter describes a mechanism for minority views (such as superstitions) to have some force in the Consensus even if they don't dominate it.

                      As well, the section on Technocratic Reality speaks of part of its success coming from how it tends to work with and build on the natural state of reality.

                      Though to be fair, nothing in the Reality Zones stuff has anything to do with how reality works; all of it deals explicitly with what Magick does: what counts as Vulgar vs. Coincidental, and whether a given magickal effect gets a bonus or penalty from Resonance. It does not cover whether a given effect requires Willworking at all. It just assumes that if you're consulting the Reality Zone mechanics, you're using the Magick system. As far as we know, the Consensus doesn't actually affect Reality; only Magick.


                      ★ I'm using the Special K to denote the Arete-and-Spheres Willworking supernatural powers featured in Mage. I am not including vampiric Disciplines, shapeshifter Gifts (or their innate “template powers” for that matter), or even sorcery here, as there's no evidence at this point that Reality Zones affect any of these things. And then there are things like physics and chemistry, which for all we know are also unaffected by the Consensus.


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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                        By the way, it's REALLY weird to see the guys who like the Traditions better to say the WoD is objective and that Science is real, while the Technocrats among us keep defending the subjective reality of things and that science is a hoax... That is... Paradoxal...
                        Not really. Objective reality allows for two things:

                        - multiple paradigms to live together
                        - to have science and the trappings of modern world regardless of the Technocracy's meddling.

                        I'm absolutely not surprised that the Union fans support the subjective reality, because that supports the Technocracy's propaganda as "without US and our paradigm, everything would go to Hell and you'd lose every modern convenience" (which is IMO very hubristic, even with the best of intentions and tells a downright tyrannical desire for control at worst). Objective reality says no, you won't, things work, the world works, but magick could shape it, to some extent and it's part of reaching a human being's full potential.

                        As someone mentioned, Technocracy fans tend to view it as a zero sum game. You could have modern pharmaceuticals or faith healing. Speaking mirrors or cell phones. Objective reality makes it a not-zero sum game, because you could have both, you could have modern remedies and shamans healing through spirits at the same time. It makes magick a possibly positive addition (with dangers for sure) instead of an absolute threat to the modern life.
                        Last edited by PMárk; 02-15-2017, 07:08 PM.


                        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                          In Revised, he local belief or would be fully locked based on the technocracian consensus, In M20 the consensus and paradox it's going to shift depending on the local belief, which I think it's the way things should have been from the very begining (Local Consensus creates a Reality Zone where the accepted type of magick can work more freely). However, without some seriously Global Consensus you can't make your magick work for non mages.



                          Yes, that's how the real world works, but you're missing a vital piece of mage lore here:

                          For something to be Coincidental or Vulgar / AKA for something to be accepted by the Consensus or not / AKA Believed or not, all that's needed it's for the people to accept that said something works, it doesn't matter how. That's why you can work Coincidental magick even if your Paradigm runs contrary to the local Consensus, as long as you disguise it as something that would be acceptable the Consensus doesn't care about the theory behind your effect.

                          If you have a gun, and you don't have amunition, as long as no one knows you don't have amunition, you can load the gun with Matter 2/ Prime 2 and make it a Coincidence/believable everywhere. It doesn't matter if you loaded it with magick utterances or weird science, as long as it's not obvious what you're doing. The underlying principles that you're using are totally lost to the Consensus.

                          This it's what I'm getting at:

                          While in reality people believes guns works because they "do", in Mage guns didn't worked before...or rather, they *did* work, they worked in the hands of armies of especially trained Citizen.
                          You see, in Mage history, guns *worked despite belief* (as you say), because the Technocracy has pushed an agenda of showing that science *works despite belief*, by using it even when it caused Paradox. This it's why it's believed that *science don't need people's beliefs to work*, it's because, disregarding the belief of people, the Technocracy showed everyone the power of their brand of magick, risking Paradox. Then this generated a snowball, after Europe was sure that science worked, they made colonizations/wars (orchestrated by the Technocracy) and "spreaded the message". Even if native americans didn't believe in obscure principles of chemistry, like "combustion", they still had to believe that guns work, when they where used by the people that already "knew" that guns worked. And that's all that you need for Technocratic Instruments to work almost everywhere.

                          That's why (and how) I can say that "everyone believes in science", even if everyone thinks that "protons, neutrons, eletrons, radio waves, photons or anything that would be necessary to understand the magic behind a TV" are bullshit, and that TV works with voodoo. I can use my Scientific Paradigm freely both ways everywhere .Everyone believes that science works, even when they believe it's because of magic. Since mystic Paradigms aren't that all encompasing, thay aren't that dominant.

                          There's no contradiction, thus, in saying that the pervading Paradigm it's science, even when few people *understand* or *do* science, because for the Consensus all of this it's academical. The Consensus isn't about what's true and what isn't true. It's about what it's possible and what isn't possible, HOW reality works (in a purely instrumental sense), not WHY (the knowledge that explains how the instrument works).

                          But, of course, the Technocracy ain't going to win untill they have eradicated the idea that anyone but them can do magick. They don't need everyone understanding or even believe in the underlying principles of science to do that. They only need for the peasa...er...the Citizens to 1º accept that science works, and 2º that it's the one true way. The first goal has been completed in all but the most remote parts of earth (by showing everyone how well scinece worked in their faces, firing it at them if it was necessary), there's no way to undo that, the second...people refused to stop believing in their ways, and here's where the Traditions can win the Ascencion War.

                          EDIT: To clarify. I'm not saying that "the Technocracy it's evil", just that they did do some ruthless stuff to win (they also showed science in positive ways, risking Paradox while healing or helping people with their cool toys), and it worked to some extent, although not to the extent that they intended.
                          Hum... Yes, thats an interesting point. Yep, I agree on all that, by that point, yes, you're right

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                            Not really. Objective reality allows for two things:

                            - multiple paradigms to live together
                            - to have science and the trappings of modern world regardless of the Technocracy's meddling.

                            I'm absolutely not surprised that the Union fans support the subjective reality, because that supports the Technocracy's propaganda as "without US and our paradigm, everything would go to Hell and you'd lose every modern convenience" (which is IMO very hubristic, even with the best of intentions and tells a downright tyrannical desire for control at worst). Objective reality says no, you won't, things work, the world works, but magick could shape it, to some extent and it's part of reaching a human being's full potential.

                            As someone mentioned, Technocracy fans tend to view it as a zero sum game. You could have modern pharmaceuticals or faith healing. Speaking mirrors or cell phones. Objective reality makes it a not-zero sum game, because you could have both, you could have modern remedies and shamans healing through spirits at the same time. It makes magick a possibly positive addition (with dangers for sure) instead of an absolute threat to the modern life.
                            Fair point

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                            • #59
                              Backing off from the rules for a moment and focusing on the conceptual underpinnings: the Consensus is the cumulative effect of Sleeping Avatars. What it does is magick every bit as much as what a mage does is magick. That means that what it can do is limited by the same restrictions that limit what mages can do. Perhaps the reason why the Consensus can do anything is because Wild Magick is a thing: it allows people with Avatars to spontaneously Willwork even without sufficient Arete or Spheres. With the Consensus, these spontaneous effects get summed up to provide a sort of ongoing “background radiation” of magick that conforms to whatever beliefs have significant buy-in. However, anything that makes an Effect harder to shape also makes that kind of Effect less likely to manifest in the Consensus.

                              This is why local Reality Zones exist: the Consensus has to overcome Correspondence obstacles to affect anything not in the immediate vicinity of a given human population. The Umbra is shielded from the Consensus by the Gauntlet rating; and to the extent that there are Umbral beings with Avatar-like abilities to impose their will in reality, the Gauntlet shields the physical world from them. And I would argue that Historical Inertia should be a thing because Time magick finds it much easier to influence the future than the past. It's also why a global Consensus is unlikely to form until the Correspondence barrier can be overcome — something that arguably is starting to happen with the spread of the Internet and the potential for Sleepers (and thus their Avatars) to start forging Sympathetic ties to people, places, and things that they've never encountered in person.

                              And another implication of this is that the Effects of the Consensus are likely to be minor as well as local: the Consensus really shouldn't be able to shape reality beyond what a mage could accomplish with a couple of dots in a Sphere. And even that requires a common belief supporting the change in question.
                              Last edited by Dataweaver; 02-16-2017, 09:54 PM.


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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                                Not really. Objective reality allows for two things:

                                - multiple paradigms to live together
                                - to have science and the trappings of modern world regardless of the Technocracy's meddling.

                                I'm absolutely not surprised that the Union fans support the subjective reality, because that supports the Technocracy's propaganda as "without US and our paradigm, everything would go to Hell and you'd lose every modern convenience" (which is IMO very hubristic, even with the best of intentions and tells a downright tyrannical desire for control at worst). Objective reality says no, you won't, things work, the world works, but magick could shape it, to some extent and it's part of reaching a human being's full potential.

                                As someone mentioned, Technocracy fans tend to view it as a zero sum game. You could have modern pharmaceuticals or faith healing. Speaking mirrors or cell phones. Objective reality makes it a not-zero sum game, because you could have both, you could have modern remedies and shamans healing through spirits at the same time. It makes magick a possibly positive addition (with dangers for sure) instead of an absolute threat to the modern life.
                                Considering I'm a technocracy fan, and I was the one saying to STOP looking at it as a zero sum game.... : P

                                But yes. The Technocracy's grand plan relies on there being a subjective reality they can undo in order to create their objective reality.

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