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  • Cybernetics and the Consensus.

    So, my game is slowly turning from Modern to Pre-Cyberpunk to outright Cyberpunk.

    A company was able to develop fully Cybernetic Augmentation (The Interation is partying like its 1999) But...any suggestions on how to apply it and such in game?


    Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
    ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
    Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
    Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

  • #2
    Well start with people that need the limbs first (vets, accident survivors) as a show case of how the technology can improve human lives. Then you have a small group of fetishes get interested and then it will slowly leak into the fashion industry.

    Comment


    • #3
      Okay, remember Deus Ex: Human Revolution (and its sequel Mankind Divided)? You remember how those games made Augmentation into the biggest deal in-universe?

      Yeah, DON'T do that.

      As Ross's Game Dungeon explained, much of Human Revolution is devoted to the subject of augmentation. To the point where it gets unrealistic (yes, I know how that sounds, talking about SF). Characters should not be devoting every conversation to talking about augs, instead of the multitude of other subjects that might interest them. Rapid anti-aug hysteria may be a classic element of speculative fiction, but most folks wouldn't care.

      This is because of the other reason Human Revolution is unrealistic: it paints a portrait of a world where large segments of the population are getting augs, and this is something crowding out non-augmented workers in the job market. But as Ross explained in the video I just linked, a vast majority of jobs wouldn't be significantly impacted by their workers having machine parts. The only ones where it would be a factor are in military, law enforcement, heavy-lifting construction, or in niche parts of the sex work market that cater to augmentation fetishes. Like I said, altogether a small fraction of the job market. Even if you assume athletics might be affected, it's more likely for things like the Olympics to just break off augmented people into their own class of athletes, while people with natural parts or augs that don't affect their performance in their field are allowed to continue showing how far natural human potential can go. People will realize it isn't fair or logical to compare the two groups.

      Moreover, even the number of folks who get augs just to get them will be much lower than Human Revolution posits. They have to 1) be able to afford expensive medical procedures, 2) be able to keep the augs maintained (if your setting chooses to include anti-rejection drugs, those will be a factor), 3) be able to replace damaged, worn out, or outmoded augs (which are harder to replace, because they're part of their body), and 4) be willing to have one of their body parts plucked out or sawed off to make room. Unless they have a pressing reason for doing so, it's going to take a number of decades in-universe before the culture becomes comfortable enough with augs for the sake of augs. For a long while, like BurritoMage said, cybernetics will be limited to veterans, victims of accident or illness or violence, those born with congenital defects that cybernetics could correct, or those whose jobs absolutely require or would greatly benefit from the advantages (bionic limbs, sub-dermal plating, cybernetic eyes with ranges of additional sensory information, etc.).

      Unless, of course, you go the Drugs & Wires route, and release a flesh-eating plague that's resistant to antibiotics, and the only reliable treatment is amputation. But that might be a direction you don't want to take the game.


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
        Okay, remember Deus Ex: Human Revolution (and its sequel Mankind Divided)? You remember how those games made Augmentation into the biggest deal in-universe?

        Yeah, DON'T do that.

        As Ross's Game Dungeon explained, much of Human Revolution is devoted to the subject of augmentation. To the point where it gets unrealistic (yes, I know how that sounds, talking about SF). Characters should not be devoting every conversation to talking about augs, instead of the multitude of other subjects that might interest them. Rapid anti-aug hysteria may be a classic element of speculative fiction, but most folks wouldn't care.

        This is because of the other reason Human Revolution is unrealistic: it paints a portrait of a world where large segments of the population are getting augs, and this is something crowding out non-augmented workers in the job market. But as Ross explained in the video I just linked, a vast majority of jobs wouldn't be significantly impacted by their workers having machine parts. The only ones where it would be a factor are in military, law enforcement, heavy-lifting construction, or in niche parts of the sex work market that cater to augmentation fetishes. Like I said, altogether a small fraction of the job market. Even if you assume athletics might be affected, it's more likely for things like the Olympics to just break off augmented people into their own class of athletes, while people with natural parts or augs that don't affect their performance in their field are allowed to continue showing how far natural human potential can go. People will realize it isn't fair or logical to compare the two groups.

        Moreover, even the number of folks who get augs just to get them will be much lower than Human Revolution posits. They have to 1) be able to afford expensive medical procedures, 2) be able to keep the augs maintained (if your setting chooses to include anti-rejection drugs, those will be a factor), 3) be able to replace damaged, worn out, or outmoded augs (which are harder to replace, because they're part of their body), and 4) be willing to have one of their body parts plucked out or sawed off to make room. Unless they have a pressing reason for doing so, it's going to take a number of decades in-universe before the culture becomes comfortable enough with augs for the sake of augs. For a long while, like BurritoMage said, cybernetics will be limited to veterans, victims of accident or illness or violence, those born with congenital defects that cybernetics could correct, or those whose jobs absolutely require or would greatly benefit from the advantages (bionic limbs, sub-dermal plating, cybernetic eyes with ranges of additional sensory information, etc.).

        Unless, of course, you go the Drugs & Wires route, and release a flesh-eating plague that's resistant to antibiotics, and the only reliable treatment is amputation. But that might be a direction you don't want to take the game.
        honestly, i was aiming for a more Cyberpunk 2020 view


        Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
        ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
        Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
        Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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        • #5
          M20 has an Enhancements background (p312) that can be used to buy points in cybernetics (p657 under Biotech) and M20 allows you to optionally buy additional background points with XP at a cost of current rating x3. I'd suggest either an XP cost of 5 or 10 for the first dot or have it only available as an in-game reward.
          There's no point in allowing characters to buy cybernetics with cash as WoD is effectively a cashless system but you could enforce a 'no more dots in Enhancements than dots in Resources' rule to reflect the costs. Dots in Enhancements or points of cybernetics could also be a reward from the characters' employers/patron/mentor/etc.

          That should be a good starting point for you.

          Note that in M20 cybernetics requires the character to take on permanent paradox, if cybernetics are part of the consensus then they maybe shouldn't include the paradox, however that makes them much more powerful than other background choices so be careful about your game balance.
          Last edited by Dogstar; 02-18-2017, 06:53 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
            Okay, remember Deus Ex: Human Revolution (and its sequel Mankind Divided)? You remember how those games made Augmentation into the biggest deal in-universe?

            Yeah, DON'T do that.

            As https://youtu.be/vYLEuQrvND0"]Ross's Game Dungeon[/URL] explained, much of Human Revolution is devoted to the subject of augmentation. To the point where it gets unrealistic (yes, I know how that sounds, talking about SF). Characters should not be devoting every conversation to talking about augs, instead of the multitude of other subjects that might interest them. Rapid anti-aug hysteria may be a classic element of speculative fiction, but most folks wouldn't care.

            This is because of the other reason Human Revolution is unrealistic: it paints a portrait of a world where large segments of the population are getting augs, and this is something crowding out non-augmented workers in the job market. But as Ross explained in the video I just linked, a vast majority of jobs wouldn't be significantly impacted by their workers having machine parts. The only ones where it would be a factor are in military, law enforcement, heavy-lifting construction, or in niche parts of the sex work market that cater to augmentation fetishes. Like I said, altogether a small fraction of the job market. Even if you assume athletics might be affected, it's more likely for things like the Olympics to just break off augmented people into their own class of athletes, while people with natural parts or augs that don't affect their performance in their field are allowed to continue showing how far natural human potential can go. People will realize it isn't fair or logical to compare the two groups.

            Moreover, even the number of folks who get augs just to get them will be much lower than Human Revolution posits. They have to 1) be able to afford expensive medical procedures, 2) be able to keep the augs maintained (if your setting chooses to include anti-rejection drugs, those will be a factor), 3) be able to replace damaged, worn out, or outmoded augs (which are harder to replace, because they're part of their body), and 4) be willing to have one of their body parts plucked out or sawed off to make room. Unless they have a pressing reason for doing so, it's going to take a number of decades in-universe before the culture becomes comfortable enough with augs for the sake of augs. For a long while, like BurritoMage said, cybernetics will be limited to veterans, victims of accident or illness or violence, those born with congenital defects that cybernetics could correct, or those whose jobs absolutely require or would greatly benefit from the advantages (bionic limbs, sub-dermal plating, cybernetic eyes with ranges of additional sensory information, etc.).

            Unless, of course, you go the http://www.drugsandwires.fail/dnwcomic/wirepedia-the-black-rot/"]Drugs & Wires[/URL] route, and release a flesh-eating plague that's resistant to antibiotics, and the only reliable treatment is amputation. But that might be a direction you don't want to take the game.
            And women don't use silicone breasts and people don't use laser to correct their eyes or don't put new teeth in their mouth.

            I myself have a titanium stick inside the bone of my left leg, due to a motorcycle accident that shattered my leg in two... Thanks to that small "ciborgization", my leg is perfect.

            And I tell you, I would by augmented limbs and muscles and eyes if I could afford them.

            That assumption that "it's unrealistic" is like saying that every person with a touch screen computer/phone in their hands would be unrealistic

            It's incredible how quicly and how eagerly people adapt to technology

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            • #7
              But, if you truly want ideas for cyberpunk, I'll have to tell to look at GURPS.

              GURPS Ultratech, that book is my better source for the Technocracy

              Just about ANY ideas of hypertech you'll find in there, you'll just need some adaptation

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                But, if you truly want ideas for cyberpunk, I'll have to tell to look at GURPS.

                GURPS Ultratech, that book is my better source for the Technocracy

                Just about ANY ideas of hypertech you'll find in there, you'll just need some adaptation
                VADE RETRO!! IT BURNS!!! IT BURNS!!!!


                Sorry..i have...Issues with GURPS.....i think its way too overcomplicated. Im mainly using the classic Cyberpunk 2020. but taking elements from Cyberpunk 2013 as a proto cyberpunk

                And yes, i would never have eye surgery..but count me with the cybernetic eyes instead anygiven time.. and it would be neat to replace an arm with a full cybernetic just for the kicks


                Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
                ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
                Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
                Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                  Okay, remember Deus Ex: Human Revolution (and its sequel Mankind Divided)? You remember how those games made Augmentation into the biggest deal in-universe?

                  Yeah, DON'T do that.

                  As Ross's Game Dungeon explained, much of Human Revolution is devoted to the subject of augmentation. To the point where it gets unrealistic (yes, I know how that sounds, talking about SF). Characters should not be devoting every conversation to talking about augs, instead of the multitude of other subjects that might interest them. Rapid anti-aug hysteria may be a classic element of speculative fiction, but most folks wouldn't care.

                  This is because of the other reason Human Revolution is unrealistic: it paints a portrait of a world where large segments of the population are getting augs, and this is something crowding out non-augmented workers in the job market. But as Ross explained in the video I just linked, a vast majority of jobs wouldn't be significantly impacted by their workers having machine parts. The only ones where it would be a factor are in military, law enforcement, heavy-lifting construction, or in niche parts of the sex work market that cater to augmentation fetishes. Like I said, altogether a small fraction of the job market. Even if you assume athletics might be affected, it's more likely for things like the Olympics to just break off augmented people into their own class of athletes, while people with natural parts or augs that don't affect their performance in their field are allowed to continue showing how far natural human potential can go. People will realize it isn't fair or logical to compare the two groups.

                  Moreover, even the number of folks who get augs just to get them will be much lower than Human Revolution posits. They have to 1) be able to afford expensive medical procedures, 2) be able to keep the augs maintained (if your setting chooses to include anti-rejection drugs, those will be a factor), 3) be able to replace damaged, worn out, or outmoded augs (which are harder to replace, because they're part of their body), and 4) be willing to have one of their body parts plucked out or sawed off to make room. Unless they have a pressing reason for doing so, it's going to take a number of decades in-universe before the culture becomes comfortable enough with augs for the sake of augs. For a long while, like BurritoMage said, cybernetics will be limited to veterans, victims of accident or illness or violence, those born with congenital defects that cybernetics could correct, or those whose jobs absolutely require or would greatly benefit from the advantages (bionic limbs, sub-dermal plating, cybernetic eyes with ranges of additional sensory information, etc.).

                  Unless, of course, you go the Drugs & Wires route, and release a flesh-eating plague that's resistant to antibiotics, and the only reliable treatment is amputation. But that might be a direction you don't want to take the game.
                  An interesting take, but you're forgetting that Human Revolution had more than just "I punch through walls and bounce bullets off my face." augs. It had hacking augs, it had augs that let you psychoanalyze someone as you're talking to them in order to help you convince them to do what you want, or to know when to bail out if you can't. It had augs that enhanced your vision.

                  That was actually the point of a whole subquest in Hengsha. A Business woman who couldn't compete without the social enhancements got them from the Triad.

                  Which kind of causes your whole point to fall to pieces. Because social skills are one of, if not THE top requirement to get a job. When you suddenly have to compete with people who can essentially read micro-expressions and look up the person opposite them's past history and such in order to game the system....

                  Anyone without Augs is going to be let down.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Crowley View Post

                    VADE RETRO!! IT BURNS!!! IT BURNS!!!!


                    Sorry..i have...Issues with GURPS.....i think its way too overcomplicated. Im mainly using the classic Cyberpunk 2020. but taking elements from Cyberpunk 2013 as a proto cyberpunk

                    And yes, i would never have eye surgery..but count me with the cybernetic eyes instead anygiven time.. and it would be neat to replace an arm with a full cybernetic just for the kicks
                    The supplements of GURPS are amongst the best things I ever read, even if you don't like the system.

                    And yes, GURPS is complicated... At first glance. After some getting use to it, it's a wounderful system, and by far the most complete. But I disgress.

                    You don't even need to know the GURPS system to use books like Ultratech. In this book particularly, you'll find a lot more discussions about technologies than of the system itself, and you don't even need to understand the system to make the book useful. For example, one thing that I love, the classification of TL (technology level). It has a scale from 0 (stone age) to 12 (the age of miracles). You can use that scale to adjust your scenario. For example, we are now at TL 8 (the age of information), just the beggining of it (TL 7 is the post WWII nuclear age and TL 6 is WWI automobile age, and so forth). So, TL 9 has a few improvements upon our current one, TL 10 have androids and AI all around, and TL 11 is about spaceships and the stuff beyond life... While TL 12 is that point where you can no longer tell technology and magic apart (so, TL 12 probably is the level of the Technocracy... Maybe even more, with personal teleportation devices, individual time warpers and that sort of things). Each fase is has a HUGE impact upon the scenario that you wanna make. I don't remember exaclty all the changes between one TL and another from memory, but cyberpunk would be mid TL 9 - start TL 10.

                    The book also gives EXTENSIVE considerations about the social impacts of each technologies.

                    Oh, and I bet you'll love all the phasers, and lasers, and plasma weapons, and electromagnetic propelents

                    Soldiers with HUD screens in their helmets, weapons with a friend-and-foe safety system, exoesqueletons, the security equipments for spies over TL 9, and the most everyday life tech (from memory, the book have many interesting technologies for camping material, for example, and many other common regular tasks). Inteligent clothes, and much much more. Oh yes, even organic spaceships, fully biological beings that can be "grow", "cultivated", in order to have space travel, all that under TL 12, but also biological houses in TL 10... Even intelligent houses (that's has a magnific social impact because... Basically, there would be no more homeless people anymore, since you can just "grow" your home). The book discuss the effect that personal "antigravity" tech would have on society (like having to worry with thieves that can enter by your windows floating) and much, much more.

                    It is basically a guide for science fiction lol

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                    • #11
                      I would also recomend GURPS Space, toghether with GURPS Ultratech, I would say that those are the most basic manuals for anyone that wanna tell science fiction tales

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

                        An interesting take, but you're forgetting that Human Revolution had more than just "I punch through walls and bounce bullets off my face." augs. It had hacking augs, it had augs that let you psychoanalyze someone as you're talking to them in order to help you convince them to do what you want, or to know when to bail out if you can't. It had augs that enhanced your vision.

                        That was actually the point of a whole subquest in Hengsha. A Business woman who couldn't compete without the social enhancements got them from the Triad.

                        Which kind of causes your whole point to fall to pieces. Because social skills are one of, if not THE top requirement to get a job. When you suddenly have to compete with people who can essentially read micro-expressions and look up the person opposite them's past history and such in order to game the system....

                        Anyone without Augs is going to be let down.
                        As pointed out by the person I linked in my post, most of the top jobs in America (as a metric of how many people hold them) wouldn't be greatly affected by social augs as presented in the game (especially since those social augs are hit or miss in execution; far from flawless). Janitors, cashiers, and office workers are mostly there to be warm bodies doing a task. There's certainly something to be said about higher paying careers that heavily involve interpersonal stuff, but that's still not most people. Especially since folks who have social mods could probably demand higher wages (they are more valuable), which would ironically give un-augmented workers a quality of their own: lower cost to the employer. All this is assuming, by the way, that governments don't become involved, since cases could be made in courts about the legality of cybernetically enhanced social influence. It depends on how well a lawyer could make a case that social augs constituted a form of mind control.

                        Now to the subject of hacking mods. Sure, it makes a person better at hacking, if there were powerful automated systems in place to interface with computers. But so would the exact same technology installed to a smart phone. There's little reason for anyone to get their skull opened up just for that technology. And most other forms of IT work require a person to write or modify code line by line, which will likely remain the province of people at a screen and keyboard for the foresee-able future.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                          And women don't use silicone breasts and people don't use laser to correct their eyes or don't put new teeth in their mouth.

                          I myself have a titanium stick inside the bone of my left leg, due to a motorcycle accident that shattered my leg in two... Thanks to that small "ciborgization", my leg is perfect.

                          And I tell you, I would by augmented limbs and muscles and eyes if I could afford them.

                          That assumption that "it's unrealistic" is like saying that every person with a touch screen computer/phone in their hands would be unrealistic

                          It's incredible how quicly and how eagerly people adapt to technology
                          First, your very admission to the titanium stick being put in your leg because of an accident makes it a different matter. You HAD to get your "augmentation" in order to correct a problem. You would fall under the same heading as vets or other accident victims who would need cybernetic limbs. But you're still in a minority, compared to all the people with fully functioning limbs. Same with people who use laser eye surgery, since it was either that or spend the rest of their lives with glasses (assuming their vision even can be corrected with them).

                          It's an entirely different matter to chop off fully functioning limbs, or pluck out fully functioning eyes, in order to receive machine ones. That's a bridge too far for most people, asking them to go under the knife when it's not necessary. Especially considering any number of side effects having artificial limbs could have in comparison to organic ones. Metal limbs are heavy (putting the user off balance if they don't get symmetrical cybernetics, which only costs more), set off metal detectors (and may lead to further security screening, since a person could conceivably hide anything in their augmentations), give the user no tactile feedback, can be uncomfortable to the touch for oneself and others (just try being in bed with a significant other, and have a prosthetic limb jamming into yourself or them all night), may experience damage the user can't feel (and thus wouldn't be aware of, which is the entire purpose behind the pain response), will need to be regularly repaired and maintained and replaced, could attract lightning, and may (as is the case in Human Revolution) require the regular intake of anti-rejection drugs, that the user will need to pay for on top of the normal costs for the augmentation.

                          None of these are deal-breakers for those who really want cyber augs, but they are considerations that consumers take into account. People who don't strictly need them might decide that the costs (both financial and other) are not worth it. Not even mentioning how surgery is not a minor matter, when it involves amputation or digging through the skull.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            As pointed out by the person I linked in my post, most of the top jobs in America (as a metric of how many people hold them) wouldn't be greatly affected by social augs as presented in the game (especially since those social augs are hit or miss in execution; far from flawless). Janitors, cashiers, and office workers are mostly there to be warm bodies doing a task. There's certainly something to be said about higher paying careers that heavily involve interpersonal stuff, but that's still not most people. Especially since folks who have social mods could probably demand higher wages (they are more valuable), which would ironically give un-augmented workers a quality of their own: lower cost to the employer. All this is assuming, by the way, that governments don't become involved, since cases could be made in courts about the legality of cybernetically enhanced social influence. It depends on how well a lawyer could make a case that social augs constituted a form of mind control.

                            Now to the subject of hacking mods. Sure, it makes a person better at hacking, if there were powerful automated systems in place to interface with computers. But so would the exact same technology installed to a smart phone. There's little reason for anyone to get their skull opened up just for that technology. And most other forms of IT work require a person to write or modify code line by line, which will likely remain the province of people at a screen and keyboard for the foresee-able future.
                            To that point, I have to point out something that's clearly at work to some degree in the Deus Ex world, as evidenced by the police bots. And other robots seen elsewhere....

                            Humans Need Not Apply.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

                              To that point, I have to point out something that's clearly at work to some degree in the Deus Ex world, as evidenced by the police bots. And other robots seen elsewhere....

                              Humans Need Not Apply.
                              An informative and disconcerting video indeed.

                              It also illustrates my point from another direction. Why should businesses bother hiring humans with cybernetic enhancements, when they could just build machines to do the same work, for a fraction of the price? Both the pure organic human and the cyborg are on their way towards becoming unemployable.


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