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  • Question about the $indicate

    So , i was reading the $indicate convention book (FINALLY!) and i got to ask.. im still confused on how are they dealing with the traditions.. how exactly making Harry potter movies. or making more Hot Topics.. or popularizing Martial Arts movies is actually working against the traditions?


    Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
    ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
    Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
    Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

  • #2
    Originally posted by Crowley View Post
    So , i was reading the $indicate convention book (FINALLY!) and i got to ask.. im still confused on how are they dealing with the traditions.. how exactly making Harry potter movies. or making more Hot Topics.. or popularizing Martial Arts movies is actually working against the traditions?
    By making them trivial fads and Hollywood blockbusters, it helps make their beliefs seem phony, the stuff of make-believe to recently Awakened. While at the same time making a tidy sum for the Syndicate.


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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    • #3
      Quite insidiously, actually. What it does is it trivialises the arts. Turn a Dreamspeaker's chants into a tattoo design, their sacred rituals into theatrical shows and their ancient artefacts into souvenirs, they stop being powerful and start being toys. "Hey cool headdress, mind if I try it on?" "Oh yeah, I've dabbled in dream catchers too, they are so good for my aura, hey, you should meet my Pilates group!"

      Their meaning is stripped, and with it any potency, the masses no longer see an ancient warrior ready to commune with the spirits designing sacred tools by which the spirits may inhabit and perform their rites, they see a guy in a funny costume doing a cool rain dance thing with a whole cart full of gift shop crap.

      Get a kid to watch Harry Potter, they'll grow up thinking all magic is is saying the right bastardised Latin while waving a pointed stick and going out to have amazing adventures and save their school. This trivialises the intense study and work that goes into Hermtic magic to no end. It ignores the centuries of labour the built the Hermetic Paradigm, the complex mathematics, the difficult language of Enochian, and packages magic into a neat little box of a few years schooling where any kid could start firing off hexes within their first few months of holding a special stick.

      All the traditions go down this way, the Etherites become little more than steampunk enthusiasts, nevermind the theories they test and the scientific principles they write up. The Akashics become Anime style fighters, ignore the years of solitary practice it takes to hone ones mind into a force of power, or the tierless constraints of living under the rules of Do, now being a Worrior Monk is just about making flashy beams of light burst from your hands.

      If the masses only think about the wiz bang side of a paradigm, they are no longer treating it with reverence or respect. It just becomes a costume and a game. There is no serious attempt to learn or develop into an awakened being, the only way to truly progress in life is via the Technocratic regime, get a good job and do as you're told.
      Last edited by Saikou; 02-19-2017, 07:10 AM.


      Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 29: The Calm

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      • #4
        They also perpetuate 'wrong' information (as silly a concept as that is in a consensus reality) to mislead. Say that you have someone who might just have a little spark of potential in them who decides to take up 'witchcraft' as depicted in, say, Charmed. If the information in Charmed is 'wrong' (and from a real world esoteric perspective, it actually is - it has about as much resemblance to actual Wiccan and allied practices as my penis does. Actually, my penis probably has more with the sects that practice ritual sex and nudity... Hm.) then Little Miss Witch is unlikely to get that little push over the ledge into a full awakening, and even if she does, she's more likely to be an orphan than to actually find the Verbena etc.

        Then add that the revival of these subjects in their modern commercialized form benefits the Syndicate in two ways. First, cash is always good. Second, and vastly more valuable on the strategic level, is that these movies and books don't just materialize in people's homes. The people who buy Lon Milo Duquette's books or new editions of the Complete Golden Dawn rituals are usually doing so as part of large logistical networks with a variety of monitoring options. On the macro level, you can say 'increase surveillance in Newark - for some reason lots of people are buying New Age crystal therapy books there at the moment' down to the micro level of 'John Smith, verified by IP address, card number, and cookies, purchased The Complete Golden Dawn yesterday. He has been researching Hermeticism, and statistical analysis shows unusual events surrounding his recent day-to-day routine. Initiate Protocol Zeta.'

        Next thing you know, potential converts are caught up in pogrom sweeps before they ever get a chance to join, recruited into the Union, or have their magical awakenings artificially crushed by Technocratic agents preventing the necessary 'sparking' events from taking place.

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        • #5
          Here's another bit of misinformation: the idea that the ability to use magic is a part of some intrinsic quality that Wizards can use, and normal people cannot. Harry Potter doesn't quite nail the "wizard is inherited" idea, because wizards can be "Muggle-born". But there is a strong theme in that and other commercialized works, that links Magic with some kind of destiny. A non-transferable quality.

          From a narrative standpoint, it allows writers and creators to present a protagonist who stumbles into magical power, because of some inborn trait or cosmic destiny. Harry Potter has wizard parent(s) (I don't recall his exact parentage). Gandalf was basically Middle Earth's version of an angel. Steven Universe was born with a magic alien gem on his stomach. Benders from the Avatar and Legend of Korra series are born with their talent. Jedi and Sith are even retconned in the second Star Wars trilogy to be replete with microscopic bacteria, tying use of The Force to a twist of biology. In all of these cases and more, the act of getting an audience surrogate into the world of magic is facilitated by outside means. It's not up to the character.

          In short, Magic is not something that can be learned. You either have it, or you don't.

          For those people whom the Technocracy can't stop from wanting magic to be real, they make it so that those people can't imagine it would be within their grasp. It can't be taught - or so the common person is lead to believe - so they don't go out of their way to look for teachers. Science, on the other hand, CAN be taught. And therein lies the final twist in the Union's design. The Force can't be learned, but a lightsaber can be built.


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          • #6
            Actually, that reminds me of a Telstra ad that didn't quite land correctly with me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zGytq7ckS8

            Now, as someone sitting in a room decorated with my personal esoteric symbology, surrounded by glass bookcases of books on the occult and on magic, being told 'in adulthood we change our minds, 'cause magic's way too hard to find, and to that fact we're all resigned' didn't quite land.

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            • #7
              But technically, woudnt that be a double edge sword since mages can base their paradigmas around this? even make it look coincidental under the right circumstances ?


              Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
              ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
              Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
              Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                Here's another bit of misinformation: the idea that the ability to use magic is a part of some intrinsic quality that Wizards can use, and normal people cannot. Harry Potter doesn't quite nail the "wizard is inherited" idea, because wizards can be "Muggle-born". But there is a strong theme in that and other commercialized works, that links Magic with some kind of destiny. A non-transferable quality.

                From a narrative standpoint, it allows writers and creators to present a protagonist who stumbles into magical power, because of some inborn trait or cosmic destiny. Harry Potter has wizard parent(s) (I don't recall his exact parentage). Gandalf was basically Middle Earth's version of an angel. Steven Universe was born with a magic alien gem on his stomach. Benders from the Avatar and Legend of Korra series are born with their talent. Jedi and Sith are even retconned in the second Star Wars trilogy to be replete with microscopic bacteria, tying use of The Force to a twist of biology. In all of these cases and more, the act of getting an audience surrogate into the world of magic is facilitated by outside means. It's not up to the character.

                In short, Magic is not something that can be learned. You either have it, or you don't.

                For those people whom the Technocracy can't stop from wanting magic to be real, they make it so that those people can't imagine it would be within their grasp. It can't be taught - or so the common person is lead to believe - so they don't go out of their way to look for teachers. Science, on the other hand, CAN be taught. And therein lies the final twist in the Union's design. The Force can't be learned, but a lightsaber can be built.


                The Awakening cannot be earned. It cannot be taught. It can even be connected to particular blood bound lineages. And there's plenty of "super minds" oh sure "science' is available to anyone but only Tony Stark is Genius enough to build an Iron man suit even those who try to copy are forced to rely on theft. Only one man could ever invent the Super Soldier Serum even 50 years later...

                Conversely anyone Can learn Magic if they try hard enough.. well I guess the CMU must be undermining the whole Technocratic concept?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Crowley View Post
                  But technically, woudnt that be a double edge sword since mages can base their paradigmas around this? even make it look coincidental under the right circumstances ?
                  Yes. But that's a minor price to pay.

                  Actually, what all those fantasy movies and books do, even if they allow some spark of glamour to remain in the world, is to place all the fantastic in this genre - fantasy. In a deeply religious world, a movie like "Dogma" for example, depicting angels as assholes to weaken the CC, or silly things like Harry Potter, they all clearly put all those ideas in the same bag of "funny bullshit". Chinese monks flying around while handling kicks no stop... Yep dude, that's fun to see, but it's silly as fuck!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                    Yes. But that's a minor price to pay.

                    Actually, what all those fantasy movies and books do, even if they allow some spark of glamour to remain in the world, is to place all the fantastic in this genre - fantasy. In a deeply religious world, a movie like "Dogma" for example, depicting angels as assholes to weaken the CC, or silly things like Harry Potter, they all clearly put all those ideas in the same bag of "funny bullshit". Chinese monks flying around while handling kicks no stop... Yep dude, that's fun to see, but it's silly as fuck!

                    They don't make a good job selling "Technocratic" science vs Etherite/VA and even letting other Traditions cloak their devices even how "primitive" in the guise of science.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post

                      The Awakening cannot be earned. It cannot be taught.
                      The Awakening might not be teachable, but Magic is. Sorcery is a thing that exists in the World of Darkness, and anyone can learn it, provided they have the right teachers or texts. Some of those Sorcerers go on to Awaken.

                      My point is that the Technocracy wants the public not to imagine that this is possible. That there must be a Gift of some kind behind magic, and "normal people" don't have it. They just have to be content with escapist fantasy, starring other people who have that gift.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                        The Awakening might not be teachable, but Magic is. Sorcery is a thing that exists in the World of Darkness, and anyone can learn it, provided they have the right teachers or texts. Some of those Sorcerers go on to Awaken.

                        My point is that the Technocracy wants the public not to imagine that this is possible. That there must be a Gift of some kind behind magic, and "normal people" don't have it. They just have to be content with escapist fantasy, starring other people who have that gift.

                        Its debatable whether or not sorcery is teachable to any or the "gifted.. Its not covered by an ability but rather a unique powerset. If we go from the idea of Hollywood as pure propaganda, there's plenty of "Unique geniuses" for science that no one else can replicate.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post


                          Its debatable whether or not sorcery is teachable to any or the "gifted.. Its not covered by an ability but rather a unique powerset. If we go from the idea of Hollywood as pure propaganda, there's plenty of "Unique geniuses" for science that no one else can replicate.
                          Because of that typing error in the first sentence, I don't know if you're trying to say "is teachable to any or just the 'gifted'", or "is teachable to any of the 'gifted'".

                          If it's the former, there is no debate. Sorcery is a taught discipline, that can be used by unAwakened mortals (and vampires, in the form of blood sorcery). That's the entire point of hedge magic.

                          If it's the latter, indeed Mages can't advance in Sorcery Paths (unless the Storyteller says otherwise, of course). However, while they can't advance in Paths, they CAN take the mystical or technomantic principles and tools of Sorcery and translate it into knowledge of Spheres. Despite being run by different sets of mechanics, Sorcerers and Mages can (and do) share similar Paradigms, Practices, and Instruments. If a Sorcerer Awakens, she is allowed to transfer her prior knowledge into Spheres, provided she takes the time to acclimate to her new state. There are rules for it in World of Darkness: Sorcerer.

                          So, again, it's perfectly possible for a random mortal to seek arcane knowledge (whether that be mystic or technomantic), and acquire Path dots. They could later (or immediately, if their introduction to magic was particularly mind-blowing) achieve an Awakening, and convert those Path dots to Sphere dots. This includes the scientist who studies the methods of a "Genius", and learns to use technosorcery. The Technocratic Union is full of Extraordinary Citizens, and other technomancer groups can have similar unAwakened but potent members.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            Because of that typing error in the first sentence, I don't know if you're trying to say "is teachable to any or just the 'gifted'", or "is teachable to any of the 'gifted'".

                            If it's the former, there is no debate. Sorcery is a taught discipline, that can be used by unAwakened mortals (and vampires, in the form of blood sorcery). That's the entire point of hedge magic

                            Yes there is debate, you can teach spheres to other Mages that doesn't mean Unawakened can learn them. Kindred teach eachother disciplines. Some people can learn Hedge Magic its not like an ability. I'll even counter its unversality with the fact Changelings cannot learn hedge magic at all, and Fera need a specialized Merit to have access to this... unlike say Coding or gunsmithing.



                            So, again, it's perfectly possible for a random mortal to seek arcane knowledge (whether that be mystic or technomantic), and acquire Path dots. They could later (or immediately, if their introduction to magic was particularly mind-blowing) achieve an Awakening, and convert those Path dots to Sphere dots. This includes the scientist who studies the methods of a "Genius", and learns to use technosorcery. The Technocratic Union is full of Extraordinary Citizens, and other technomancer groups can have similar unAwakened but potent members.
                            The Revised NWO book points out the rise of Random Extraordinary citizens in the last decade, not planned, not taught by the Tehcnocracy but rather people who have spontanious developed these talents. They sure as hell aren't treating Extrordinary citizens as something that is simply a matter of letting people study the right thing.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              Yes there is debate, you can teach spheres to other Mages that doesn't mean Unawakened can learn them. Kindred teach eachother disciplines. Some people can learn Hedge Magic its not like an ability. I'll even counter its unversality with the fact Changelings cannot learn hedge magic at all, and Fera need a specialized Merit to have access to this... unlike say Coding or gunsmithing.
                              Of course you can't teach an unAwakened person to use Spheres. But you aren't teaching them Spheres. You are teaching them the metaphysics that underpin the Paradigm, and then the unAwakened learn those metaphysics as Paths. The Order of Hermes teaches Sorcery as a matter of course. If an Awakened initiate just happens to get more from that knowledge, all the better.

                              And of course Changelings and Fera can't use Sorcery (probably, depending on Storyteller fiat). I said "unAwakened mortals". It was implied that I wasn't including major splats in there.


                              The Revised NWO book points out the rise of Random Extraordinary citizens in the last decade, not planned, not taught by the Tehcnocracy but rather people who have spontanious developed these talents. They sure as hell aren't treating Extrordinary citizens as something that is simply a matter of letting people study the right thing.
                              I don't exactly know what you're trying to argue here. So I'm not going to bother.


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