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Arete 5/6 mage against a 5th or 6th Gen Kaldoun/Thautmurge

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  • Arete 5/6 mage against a 5th or 6th Gen Kaldoun/Thautmurge

    Hello there Onyxpath

    Not too long ago I was engaged in a conversation about the apparent power disparity between an arete 5/6 mage against a 5th or 6th gen kaldounic sorcery/thautmurge. The other person in the conversation was adamant that a Kaldounic sorcery, particular a 6th or 5th gen one, as well as a thautmurge could crush an Arete 5/6 mage in most cases. I said that it would depend on the mage, how prepared he or she was and so on.

    Question is, with little preparation or much preparation, how well do you think an arete 5/6 mage could stand up to such an adversary?

  • #2
    Originally posted by KingJohn View Post
    Hello there Onyxpath

    Not too long ago I was engaged in a conversation about the apparent power disparity between an arete 5/6 mage against a 5th or 6th gen kaldounic sorcery/thautmurge. The other person in the conversation was adamant that a Kaldounic sorcery, particular a 6th or 5th gen one, as well as a thautmurge could crush an Arete 5/6 mage in most cases. I said that it would depend on the mage, how prepared he or she was and so on.

    Question is, with little preparation or much preparation, how well do you think an arete 5/6 mage could stand up to such an adversary?


    These are insane levels of difference. I mean this is everything from "from naked human who just go up in the morning" to post human cyborg god spaceship blasting sending wave after wave of killbots from orbit while shining sunlight on said vampire through mirrors for your mage its just not really a fair point..

    Broadly speaking the Mages have more potential options so its possible an Arete 5/6 mage will have something the Vampire just has no defense/plan for. Coversely with a more limited skill set the mage is more likely to have a counter/nosell for the vampire but this is the BROADEST strokes. Plenty of mages won't have the defenses or plans to handle what a 6th or 5th gen can throw at them.

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    • #3
      Well, like you said, it depends on the mage. What Spheres they have, what mage group they belong to, what their Focus is, what resources they have (Wonders, Nodes, Familiars, etc). How much time we're really talking when we say "little preparation". And what edition of the game we're using.

      On the other side, we need to know what Paths/Ways/Kraina the vampire possesses, and at what levels. What Clan they are, and whether or not they have something to establish to sympathetic connection to the mage with. What Rituals are they packing, and how much prep time they have to perform them. What they aim to gain from the conflict, and indeed how they are approaching this mortal magic user.

      With so many variables to consider, it's hard to determine how a conflict would play out. So let's just start throwing things out.

      If we're going with M20, a mystic mage would already have overcome the need for a few of their Instruments. They can throw out spells on short notice, and gain great advantage from use of the Instruments they've overcome (-1 to difficulty). If it's a technomancer, at Arete 6 they would just have overcome one of their Instruments, so they are slightly less versatile. A Technocrat cannot have overcome any Instruments at this time, so if he's caught flat-footed, without his tools, he may be screwed (though maybe not, if some of his Instruments are activity based, or internal to his body). If the mage can use Martial Arts as Instrument, they are in a position to face an attack well.

      If the mage has Correspondence 3, they are vastly less beatable. They could teleport away, and raise Wards against long-distance magic by the vampire. They could also turn the tables, using Correspondence to counter-scry on their opponent (using the connection formed by the initial assault), and even teleport over to attack the vampire directly. That is, if the mage cares to confront them in person. They could instead carpet bomb the vampire with any other Spheres they possess.


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      • #4
        Even an initial Mage char with enough creativity, the right resources and proper preparation could destroy the 5th gen vampire

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        • #5
          *stares at thread title*

          *braces for impact*


          >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
          >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingJohn View Post
            Hello there Onyxpath
            Originally posted by KingJohn View Post

            Not too long ago I was engaged in a conversation about the apparent power disparity between an arete 5/6 mage against a 5th or 6th gen kaldounic sorcery/thautmurge. The other person in the conversation was adamant that a Kaldounic sorcery, particular a 6th or 5th gen one, as well as a thautmurge could crush an Arete 5/6 mage in most cases. I said that it would depend on the mage, how prepared he or she was and so on.

            Question is, with little preparation or much preparation, how well do you think an arete 5/6 mage could stand up to such an adversary?
            Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
            *stares at thread title*

            *braces for impact*
            Alright... I'll run the first sacrifice to the pyre for this one...

            *****

            The fundamental flaw-of-premise/misperception with this comparison (which goes back to the 90s with the now-old-school cross-comparisons) is in comparing a mage's Arete with an opponent's (a low generation vampire, in this case) "x" power. Neither the mage's Arete, in immediate context, nor the vampire's generation, alone, have any direct bearing metaphysically; rather, it's how well-developed their *expressions* of their innate power/potential is (i.e. how high a mage's rating in "x" Spheres are vs. how high said Koldun has developed his hedge magic). You can have a mage with Arete:7+ who doesn't have a Sphere above 3 or 4 (unlikely, but there are examples across the editions... and enough so as not to disregard the concept out of hand...); similarly, a 5th or 6th generation vampire could have been embraced last night and is only just manifesting his first/most basic abilities. Said 5th/6th generation vampire would have an powerful edge at levels 6+ in specific ways in which a *specific* power manifests vs. a mage who "only" has "x" Sphere at 3 or 4 (as a given power/ritual may well cover an (E)ffect that a mage can't compensate/cover for). On the flip, even some powerful rituals can be mitigated by a clever mage (particularly when using Conjunctional Effects) because of the flexibility and "get-around" that Magic(k)(tm) has over Hedge Magic(tm) (even very powerful Hedge Magic(tm) ). It's not quite so cut-and-dry as simply measuring things along one axis of power/determination.

            Short comparison: low generation vampires have a generally greater amount of potential "oomph" behind there juju (where applicable) due to their having Reality(tm) "on their side", as it were, linked both to their connection to ultra-potent mythic threads as well as having Reality(tm) "going along with them" (if only subversively) when they "do their thing" (to paraphrase this relative to Mage cosmology). Mages, however, have inherently more potency and flexibility within their closer/more immediate potential (as their Spheres at 4/5 can do this, inherently and relative to potency, that even some of the strongest vampire hedge-wizards would be hard-pressed to match). Descriptors and indicated range-of-ability play as much a part in the assessment as the hard numbers do. A vampire with Dominate:4/5 can have his attempted mental influences thwarted viat Mind:1/2, assuming sufficient prep/successes; a particular blood ritual can circumvent the magic(k) of an Arete:10 mage if said mage doesn't have the proper defense in place and/or his world-view doesn't account for the way in which "x" occurs (assuming, of course, the mage has the appropriate Sphere(s) to counter/mitigate "x").

            It's all relative. The math is just one part of the equation. The "fluff" is every bit as important in this.
            Last edited by Just John, Forever...; 02-19-2017, 10:05 AM. Reason: bizarre cut/paste error


            I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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            • #7
              What about an elder thaumaturge/koldun/whatever with 5 in every path known to their brand of blood magic and pretty much any canon ritual (again known to their brand of BM) up to lvl 6 versus a Arete 6 Mythic (OoH, Cel Cor, Akhashic etc) mage with all Spheres at 5?

              The goal is to either kill the opponent or make their life so miserable that it isnt worth living.

              Each opponent have the full backing of their respective group (Camarilla/Sabbat and clan vs Tradition and the Traditions) in terms of resources but not extra manpower (plus whaterver peraonal resources an Elder/Master can personally possess).





              English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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              • #8
                The mage stops time using that watch talisman that stops time. [insert elaborate series of precautionary things to ensure the vampire is deader than dead here.]

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                  The mage stops time using that watch talisman that stops time. [insert elaborate series of precautionary things to ensure the vampire is deader than dead here.]
                  Well... the Vampire gets a Wits + Occult roll to resist this, don't they? And any 6th Generation Koldun (of appropriate age) worth their salt has Occult 7 and Wits at 4 or higher. The resist roll is Difficulty 7, but I'm not sure if it's reflexive or something you need to consciously do. If it's the former the Vampire is screwed.

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                  • #10
                    No they don't. It's not a curse on the vampire. It's an effect on the mage. They push themselves out of the timestream, then they do whatever they want before going back in. NORMALLY the downside is you can't do any magic while doing this. But that's why you use the Talisman. Because then IT'S fueling the spell not you.

                    Giving the Vampire countermagick against that would be like giving the vampire countermagick against you buffing your strength score with life.

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                    • #11
                      Doesn't matter if they are mystic or Technomancer, the Mage with all spheres at 5 will have the capacity to No sell anything the Vampire throws at him. Contingency Spell plus all options is a hell of at hing.


                      assuming a level of sublty the vampire can make the Mage's life miserable but.. then dies horribly when the Mage scries the cause. Bare in mind Mage with all sphere at 5 is pretty close to Omipotent.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
                        What about an elder thaumaturge/koldun/whatever with 5 in every path known to their brand of blood magic and pretty much any canon ritual (again known to their brand of BM) up to lvl 6 versus a Arete 6 Mythic (OoH, Cel Cor, Akhashic etc) mage with all Spheres at 5?

                        The goal is to either kill the opponent or make their life so miserable that it isnt worth living.

                        Each opponent have the full backing of their respective group (Camarilla/Sabbat and clan vs Tradition and the Traditions) in terms of resources but not extra manpower (plus whaterver peraonal resources an Elder/Master can personally possess).
                        The poor Vampire is doomed. Arete 6 with all spheres at 5?

                        Not even the Twin sisters, the Matriarch of Mecha have that... Nor do ANY offcial Mage ever published (you have a few archmages like Porthos with 6+ in one Sphere, but NO ONE with 5 in all).

                        Even 4th generations like Lazarus, Hardestat the Old, Etrius, whatever, would be fair game for such a Mage.

                        You're talking about a guy that can build Etherships filled with Primium ALL BY HIMSELF, with proton cannons capable of atomic incineration, space/time distortion, fate manipulation, and much, much more

                        Such a Mage can wouldn't go ALONE to fight anyone... He'll travel along his very Sanctum and Chantry to attack his enemy... In this case, the Mage will be fully assisted by a giant ethership, and inside his ship, he'll have his fully equiped lab. Inside his ship, an army of mutant creatures with a wide array of supernatural capacities... Robots, cyborg-hybrids and geneengineered can be sent on hundreds of capsules, plus several hundreds of hand-crafted spirits. The amount of Primium (or like substance) could render any static blood-magic into futile efforts, while a swarm of powerful monsters storm the house of the poor Vampire metuselah. Even fate would be against the Vampire - he can expect a huge unluck wave on his side, while his enemies are extremely luck. And, there is a high likelihood that a HUGE portal with an entrance to the Sun itself would be opened up INSIDE+ABOVE+BELLOW+SURRONDING the Vampire's house, pouring the pure plasma super heated energy directly from the Sun itself, every turn, no stop. And much, much more

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
                          What about an elder thaumaturge/koldun/whatever with 5 in every path known to their brand of blood magic and pretty much any canon ritual (again known to their brand of BM) up to lvl 6 versus a Arete 6 Mythic (OoH, Cel Cor, Akhashic etc) mage with all Spheres at 5?

                          The goal is to either kill the opponent or make their life so miserable that it isnt worth living.

                          Each opponent have the full backing of their respective group (Camarilla/Sabbat and clan vs Tradition and the Traditions) in terms of resources but not extra manpower (plus whaterver peraonal resources an Elder/Master can personally possess).
                          This Mage need not fight at all.

                          He can easily set things up that you don't want/need/care to deal with him. Or that circumstances are against an attack every time. The Elder waits (time is on his side, or so he thinks).


                          So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nonsense View Post

                            This Mage need not fight at all.

                            He can easily set things up that you don't want/need/care to deal with him. Or that circumstances are against an attack every time. The Elder waits (time is on his side, or so he thinks).
                            "Or so he thinks" indeed. I don't remember for certain, but I'm vaguely sure that by this point, the mage's Arete is high enough that he wouldn't even need to roll to predict the future. So let's just start there, and then realize (again) that our Master/Archmaster can stop time. A vampire has to advance Temporis - a rare Discipline to begin with - to high elder levels before they can pull that one off.

                            What else would Mastery of all Spheres do for our hypothetical mage? Well, he can manipulate Entropy to the point where he's causing thoughts to be born and die as he chooses. Arguably, Entropy-based mental manipulation wouldn't even encounter the same sort of Willpower resistance that Mind-based ones would. The mage isn't touching the vampire's head directly, just shifting odds in their favor that thoughts problematic for the mage just...wither on the vine. The vampire could be made to forget what they were thinking about, and instead become fixated on other problems (and when you're a Methuselah, you have other problems).

                            If the mage doesn't want to risk the vampire causing trouble for him or his loved ones down the line, he could always combine Correspondence 4 and Time 4, and displace the leech from space and time entirely. And because he's basically frozen in temporal stasis, the Koldun/Thaumaturge can't even attempt to unweave the enchantment. One moment he's in his haven, the next he's hundreds of years in the future. His resources are in worse shambles than if he'd taken to Torpor (since most vampires who feel the Torpor urge tend to have a chance to get their affairs in order). His ghouls are dead or signed on to different masters, and the power vacuum left by his absence has long since been filled, by rivals who have no intention of giving their gains back.

                            And where is the mortal mage? Who knows? Might be dead, might have moved shop, might have built a Horizon realm beyond a vampire's reach. Might even have ascended. If the mage IS still around, he's had a few centuries to prepare for if (or when) the vampire comes back.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingJohn View Post
                              I said that it would depend on the mage, how prepared he or she was and so on.
                              I'd rarely take any other answer than this. These fights never take place in a vacuum and, even if they did, would give some inherent advantage to one or the other based on preferred fighting method.

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