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  • Question about the K'llashaa

    I heard a rumor that the K'llashaa are actually the Neverborn from Wraith. If this is true, I am considering including it in my crossover timeline, but I would like to review the actual text first. Could anyone provide me with a source and page number for this statement (if it's even true)? Thanks.


    My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

  • #2
    It is the Book of Madness Revised, page 45. It says that this conclusion (That the Beings Nephandi are linked to are actually dreams of the Neverborn from W:tO) was uncovered by a team of "Infernalist researchers", and it talks about it being relevant to all Nephandi, not only the the K'llashaa.
    To me it makes not much sense, really.
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-28-2017, 04:05 AM.

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    • #3
      Thank you so much! After reviewing your summary of what it says, I agree that it doesn't make much sense, so I'm not going to use it. I'm going to leave the K'llashaa and the Neverborn as two separate and unrelated entities. Thanks again.


      Colleen


      My name is Colleen. My favorite song is "Wildwood Flower." My ambition is to write the complete history of the White Wolf/Onyx Path universe.

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      • #4
        It doesn't make any sense actually, once you consider that the different patrons/benefactors of the Nephandi are confirmed to exist - unless someone wants to argue that the Wyrm, the Maeljin Incarnae and the Urge Wyrms (in the case of the Malfean Nephandi) are somehow dreams of the Neverborn....

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        • #5
          If I remember correctly, Nephandi could be split up into roughly three types.

          The first are the Infernalists. These guys sell their souls to demons and are pretty straight forward. Their goal is to ensure that their masters rule the world. The next type of Nephandi are the ones who have sold their souls to the Wyrm. They tend to be more of a religious sect, worshiping the Wyrm, the Maeljin Incarna, etc. They tend to pretty crazy, but again typically more in a fanatical religious way. The last type of Nephandi are the K'llashaa. These guys worship the Outer Lords (which are basically White Wolf's Cthulhu-mythos stand ins). These mages tend to be absolutely insane, their masters make no pretense or understanding of humanity and Nephandi from the other two sects tend to find these guys pretty creepy and disturbing.

          In the Book of Madness it suggested as a possibility that while the demon lords and Maeljin incarna and such existed, uniquely the masters of the K'llashaa may have been dreamed into existence by the Neverborn in the Labyrinth. The bizarre entities the K'llashaa followed were essentially the lesser masks and weak visions of beings of far greater power and evil. I don't believe this ever got any official confirmation anywhere however and it was just more of a storyhook than anything else.

          I never used this in a game and never felt particularly strongly about it one way or another.

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          • #6
            It's also hinted at in Revised Core on page 278 under The Harrowing.

            It states that because of the 6th Great Maelstrom, a lot of nephandi lost a lot of their power and dark influence. I think the idea is that the 6th Great Maelstrom woke up a number of Neverborn, which made their dreams, and thus the source of the K'lashaa's power, disappear.

            Personally, I kinda like the idea that the K'lashaa's elder gods are the product of dreams from Oblivion made real. it ties in all of the umbra to the Nephandi.

            Infernalists have their Demons from the Astral Realm
            Malfeans have their Wyrmspawn from the Spirit Wylds
            K'lashaa have their Elder Gods, created by Oblivion from the depths of the Dark Umbra, and existing simultaneously in the Deep Umbra and the Deep Dreaming.


            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 23:In The Mind of Madness

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            • #7
              I think I like better the idea of the K'llashaa being followers of beings from the Deep Umbra, and maybe have a fourth sect of Nephandi that follow the Neverborn (or the dreams of the Neverborn), who "live" in the Dark Umbra. There's something haunting - and more appropriately Lovecraftian - about Nephandi that worship the star-filled darkness, servants to beings that may or may not actually care about their followers, because they are just so alien. Making the Outer Gods just be figments of dead earthly things seems to subtract from their cosmic mystery and horror.

              While the K'llashaa have a Star-Filled Darkness (Deep Umbra), the Infernalists have a Blasphemous Darkness (Astral Umbra), and the Malfeans have the Darkness of Rot (Spirit Wylds), this hypothetical fourth sect would have the Darkness of Death and Unmaking (Dark Umbra). They use the darkest necromancies to defile and torment the living and the dead, edging those with life towards suicide and making wraiths think that Oblivion might be preferable to the Nephandi's hands. And if the Nephandi can force ghosts and mortals into furthering their ends in the meantime, all the better. They could be silently aiding groups like Clan Giovanni in their Shroud-rending plot, in the hopes of letting Oblivion swallow everything all at once.

              Edit: And you know what, we can bring the Dreaming in on this too, with another Nephandi faction. I'm thinking...you know how in Dark Souls you have Hallows, humans who have lost all volition and self-identity, and become empty husks? Well, what is Banality taken to its greatest extreme than people who have become hollowed out, their minds barren earth from which no creative thought can arise. Drones wandering a cold, dead world, going through the motions of life without really thinking or feeling or dreaming.

              I'm thinking of a (probably small) faction of twisted Fae-blooded Nephandi, who take the idea of the Autumn People and run with it. Not only killing dreams and creativity, but breaking minds and shredding souls. The world tips slowly towards Winter, one broken and emptied human at a time. Wretched evil mages who give service to an Apathetic Darkness.

              Ah, but I'm just rambling. Unchecked creative storms are kind of my thing. I find a germ of an idea I like, and proceed to explore every permutation and detail I can think of.
              Last edited by Bluecho; 02-23-2017, 02:59 AM.


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              • #8
                I like that idea of the 5 Nefandi factions. They could even have a different caul each. The "death" Nefandi would go dance in the Labirinth, the "Winter" Nefandi (those cannot be called just as Autumn People, they go beyond that) could have a place of the Dreaming that have a nightmarish black spiral... Well, maybe they could even have a small piece of the Dreaming infected with banality

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  It is the Book of Madness Revised, page 45. It says that this conclusion (That the Beings Nephandi are linked to are actually dreams of the Neverborn from W:tO) was uncovered by a team of "Infernalist researchers", and it talks about it being relevant to all Nephandi,not only the the K'llashaa.
                  To me it makes not much sense, really.

                  This means the Neverborn are such vast creatures that even their Nightmares count as gods. After the 6th Maelstrom they woke up and the K'llashaa were left without their masters.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #10
                    So, with all these interesting ideas for other nephandi that slot in from other games on the table, can we take a moment to acknowledge how M20's attempt to expand on the original three had none of this?

                    It created factions of nephandi that seemed completely arbitrary in their beliefs and practices. Almost as if the writer was going "you know that thing on the news that seemed evil? That's a new kind of nephandi now".
                    Honestly they seemed more to me like ideas for how the existing Nephandi could manifest than new schools in their own right.

                    The Hammer Security Force just sounds like something the infernalists would cook up, while the Decadanti just screams Malfean in its influence of human vanity and push of selfmutilation to achieve a standard of beauty, especially if Pentex can sell you the products needed.
                    They even state that other groups like The Pipers aren't real nephandi, and the Golden Bull are simply a brand of infernalsits.


                    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 23:In The Mind of Madness

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                      So, with all these interesting ideas for other nephandi that slot in from other games on the table, can we take a moment to acknowledge how M20's attempt to expand on the original three had none of this?

                      It created factions of nephandi that seemed completely arbitrary in their beliefs and practices. Almost as if the writer was going "you know that thing on the news that seemed evil? That's a new kind of nephandi now".
                      Honestly they seemed more to me like ideas for how the existing Nephandi could manifest than new schools in their own right.

                      The Hammer Security Force just sounds like something the infernalists would cook up, while the Decadanti just screams Malfean in its influence of human vanity and push of selfmutilation to achieve a standard of beauty, especially if Pentex can sell you the products needed.
                      They even state that other groups like The Pipers aren't real nephandi, and the Golden Bull are simply a brand of infernalsits.
                      And then there's Los Sangrientos, which not only could have just been an infernal cult, but also paints all practice of Brujeria - that unique syncretism between traditional Mexican beliefs and Catholicism - as being evil and demon worship. It also ties it directly into the bloody rites of the ancient Aztecs, an intellectual fixation that White Wolf has always seemed to have when it ever talked about South and Central America, and Onyx Path seems to have picked up.

                      The folks who mix Catholic rites with traditional witchcraft in these areas are just people, delving into mysticism for the same reasons anyone does. The Saints are called upon for the same reasons European witches called upon the Old Gods: for prosperity, health, love, justice, etc. And Santa Muerte - the Pale Lady herself and proxy for the ancient queen of the underworld/wife to the god of magic - is called upon for the same reasons. It's not just Cartel members or corrupt officials that pray to her - lots of people do, often in the hopes of gaining justice against the depredations of the former two groups.

                      This current of mysticism isn't just a blanket evil practice that you can slot effortlessly into Nephandism. The truth is more complex than that.


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