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  • Targeting Spheres, a compromise

    I imagine most new players are irked to find that RAW invisibility requires as much Life (2) as Forces. I get why they did it that way--you're making a person invisible after all. But it is tedious to need Matter and/or Life 2 to do so many Effects where those Spheres are not primary--teleportation, auras, etc. It seems a simple solution would be to have the lack of a targeting Sphere incur a +2 difficulty. It's a serious but manageable penalty. Conjunctional magic should be a benefit of the system, not a burden.

  • #2
    I have a different compromise entirely. It depends on the system surrounding the number of Effects running at once, and on some other factors. Allow me to elucidate.

    Forces alone works in the caster's presence as they desire. If they want it in a static location, it can stay there. If they want to center on a person or object that can move or be moved, it's still fine. They are using their Awakened Will to keep the Effect where they want it. Naturally, for this to work, they must keep a portion of that Awakened Will concentrated on the task, making adjustments whenever needed. This counts towards the total number of Effects they have running at once (hereafter, for the sake of brevity, called "Concentration").

    Assuming all Effects in this discussion have Duration (otherwise, the Effect would appear and resolve in one turn, rendering the point moot), an Effect that is stationary/unmoving (say, making a certain spot and the objects/people therein invisible), no concentration is needed. The fact that it has Duration is enough to keep it running. A dynamic spell - like one that moved or altered in some way in response to changing need - would require concentration because it needs to be controlled. (Another example illustrating this would be a sword brandished with telekinetic force; it can float and attack, thus requiring persistent attention, even if only a slight amount. An object made to float off the ground and do nothing else would require no attention.)

    When, then, does "locking" an Effect with Life or Matter come into play? When the caster wants an Effect on a person/object that can move/be moved, but doesn't want it to count towards concentration. Weaving the Effect into the pattern with Life 2 or Matter 2 (or, arguably, Prime 2, since it is the Sphere of Patterns) frees the mage from needing to worry about it. Invisibility is simple to illustrate, as it is a binary state: the subject either can or cannot be seen.

    You would also "lock on" with pattern Spheres if you wanted to maintain that Effect when the mage leaves the vicinity. Unless they have Correspondence, no amount of concentration will keep an Effect on a moving subject if the caster is absent. A set, stationary location could be made to persist in its enchantment, regardless of the caster's presence, so long as the Effect doesn't require constant adjustment or movement. But if it would move along with a person or object, the Effect would need to be "pinned" to the subject in question. In the case of invisibility, if the caster and one other person were made invisible, but they wanted to split up, the caster could only do so if they used Life to weave that invisibility to their cohort. If they never intended to split up, the caster could get away with just using Forces.

    Life 2 or Matter 2 (or Prime 2) would also be needed if the mage wanted to weave a permanent Forces enchantment onto the person or object, creating a Trinket (under M20 terminology). Turning a sheet of steel invisible (to use as a bullet-proof window) would require just such a lock, since, again, the Effect is meant to stick to the object, regardless of the mage's presence. It just so happens the Duration is "Forever (or Close Enough)".
    Last edited by Bluecho; 02-25-2017, 04:19 AM.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
      Forces alone works in the caster's presence as they desire. If they want it in a static location, it can stay there. If they want to center on a person or object that can move or be moved, it's still fine. They are using their Awakened Will to keep the Effect where they want it. Naturally, for this to work, they must keep a portion of that Awakened Will concentrated on the task, making adjustments whenever needed. This counts towards the total number of Effects they have running at once (hereafter, for the sake of brevity, called "Concentration").

      <snip>

      When, then, does "locking" an Effect with Life or Matter come into play? When the caster wants an Effect on a person/object that can move/be moved, but doesn't want it to count towards concentration. Weaving the Effect into the pattern with Life 2 or Matter 2 (or, arguably, Prime 2, since it is the Sphere of Patterns) frees the mage from needing to worry about it. Invisibility is simple to illustrate, as it is a binary state: the subject either can or cannot be seen.
      To be honest, that's quite how I read the M20 section on locking effects RAW.
      It's also a good explaination of an effect that requires concentration vs. how locked effects don't need the attention anymore. A Mage actively concentrating on the forces effect can keep on moving it, but the lock-on basically makes things automatic.


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      • #4
        I usually play it this way too.
        My mages can have a "field" effect active on themselves and extended to others with only that sphere needed. However, the others will only gain the benefit of the effect if they stay in close proximity to the Mage, or if Correspondence is used, remain within range of familiar places or connecting objects as per Correspondence Range.

        Locking an effect does away with the need for close proximity and Correspondence.


        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 22: The Morning After

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        • #5
          I have another system: invisilibity requires Forces 2. Period.

          If you want to lock an effect, make it permanent.

          It makes no sense: Forces 1 can detect motion and moviment. Are you telling me that you can't use forces to make an invisibility field to move following the movement of the wearer? (Just to say it once again, Forces 1 is enough to detect movement, Forces 2 is enough to move something).

          You don't need life to "detect" the wearer of the effect - simply, the Life in there is to "show the effect were the wearer is at any given time - Life 1- but that can be done with Forces 1 (detect movement), and to have the effect "follow the movement" of the target - Life 2 - however, that too can be done with Forces 2 alone (control movement).

          What's more, I hate when people just throw in random spheres without any good reason. What does Life 2 do? Detect life patterns (Life 1), self-heal, change minor life (anything that isn't vertebrate animal) and restore the patterns (heal) of that same minor life. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE LIFE 2 FOR AN INVISIBILITY FIELD? It has absolutely no connection AT ALL.

          And this is faaaaaaar too common on many books, random effects that, it seems the authors don't quite know which spheres to use, and just place toghether several spheres with random levels toghether by "the feel" of it. "Oh, a invisibility field that moves with the target? Oh, that's easy, it's Forces 2 and ah... Hum... Just Forces... No, it can't be... Wait... It's a living target right... So... It needs Life... At level... Hum... No, 1 it's sensorial... Life 2! Yes, that's it!"
          If anything (saying, if you would like to TURN YOUR FLEASH AND SKIN invisible, as opposed to simply placing a field of invisibility above your skin), you would need Life 3 for yourself, and Life 4 for others.
          Life 2 will only EVER let you turn worms or plants invisible.

          And what about Matter 2? TRANSMUTATE!!! You would NEVER be able to turn A FREAKING CAR invisible with matter 2 ALONE. You would need Matter 4 for that

          What's the difference between a field of invisibility around a car, and a Matter 4, Forces 2 effect that transmutate the matter into a invisible material? Well, if I remove the tire of the car with the invisible field, the tire will become visible. However, the car that were transmutated using Matter 4 and Forces 2, will continue to be invisible even if I melt it and make soda cans with it (it will become invisible soda cans).

          The same for a Life 3/4 effect to shape the flesh invisible. With a Life 3/4, Forces 2 effect, the person would remain invisible even if you dismber it, or if pass her body into a grinder machine.

          So, that thing of Life 2 or Mattet 2 is just stupid.

          I can make a point that you can make an effect move following another pattern using Forces 2 alone (like I explained before). But you could also use Correspondence 3 for it (Corr 1, detect movement, or detect "space deslocation", Corr 3 to "deslocate" the space of the effect). Or, you could also use Entropy 3 (Entropy 1 detects "what the effect should be doing", and Entropy 2 moves the effect "in a random way that, by coincidence, matches the movement of the wearer").

          But no, invisibility is Forces 2, time accelerator is Time 3, luck aura is Entropy 2, and so, and there's no need for any other spheres.

          It's funny thou that no one would think you'd need Life 2 to keep a Time 3 or Entropy 2 effect on a target. Why is that? Just because you don't visualize a "time Field" or a "probability Field" around the target when you use it?

          That is an utter prove that this is nonsense. Just have it with Forces 2 and be done with it

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
            I have another system: invisilibity requires Forces 2. Period.

            If you want to lock an effect, make it permanent.

            It makes no sense: Forces 1 can detect motion and moviment. Are you telling me that you can't use forces to make an invisibility field to move following the movement of the wearer? (Just to say it once again, Forces 1 is enough to detect movement, Forces 2 is enough to move something).

            You don't need life to &quot;detect&quot; the wearer of the effect - simply, the Life in there is to &quot;show the effect were the wearer is at any given time - Life 1- but that can be done with Forces 1 (detect movement), and to have the effect &quot;follow the movement&quot; of the target - Life 2 - however, that too can be done with Forces 2 alone (control movement).

            What's more, I hate when people just throw in random spheres without any good reason. What does Life 2 do? Detect life patterns (Life 1), self-heal, change minor life (anything that isn't vertebrate animal) and restore the patterns (heal) of that same minor life. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE LIFE 2 FOR AN INVISIBILITY FIELD? It has absolutely no connection AT ALL.

            And this is faaaaaaar too common on many books, random effects that, it seems the authors don't quite know which spheres to use, and just place toghether several spheres with random levels toghether by &quot;the feel&quot; of it. &quot;Oh, a invisibility field that moves with the target? Oh, that's easy, it's Forces 2 and ah... Hum... Just Forces... No, it can't be... Wait... It's a living target right... So... It needs Life... At level... Hum... No, 1 it's sensorial... Life 2! Yes, that's it!&quot;
            If anything (saying, if you would like to TURN YOUR FLEASH AND SKIN invisible, as opposed to simply placing a field of invisibility above your skin), you would need Life 3 for yourself, and Life 4 for others.
            Life 2 will only EVER let you turn worms or plants invisible.

            And what about Matter 2? TRANSMUTATE!!! You would NEVER be able to turn A FREAKING CAR invisible with matter 2 ALONE. You would need Matter 4 for that

            What's the difference between a field of invisibility around a car, and a Matter 4, Forces 2 effect that transmutate the matter into a invisible material? Well, if I remove the tire of the car with the invisible field, the tire will become visible. However, the car that were transmutated using Matter 4 and Forces 2, will continue to be invisible even if I melt it and make soda cans with it (it will become invisible soda cans).

            The same for a Life 3/4 effect to shape the flesh invisible. With a Life 3/4, Forces 2 effect, the person would remain invisible even if you dismber it, or if pass her body into a grinder machine.

            So, that thing of Life 2 or Mattet 2 is just stupid.

            I can make a point that you can make an effect move following another pattern using Forces 2 alone (like I explained before). But you could also use Correspondence 3 for it (Corr 1, detect movement, or detect &quot;space deslocation&quot;, Corr 3 to &quot;deslocate&quot; the space of the effect). Or, you could also use Entropy 3 (Entropy 1 detects &quot;what the effect should be doing&quot;, and Entropy 2 moves the effect &quot;in a random way that, by coincidence, matches the movement of the wearer&quot.

            But no, invisibility is Forces 2, time accelerator is Time 3, luck aura is Entropy 2, and so, and there's no need for any other spheres.

            It's funny thou that no one would think you'd need Life 2 to keep a Time 3 or Entropy 2 effect on a target. Why is that? Just because you don't visualize a &quot;time Field&quot; or a &quot;probability Field&quot; around the target when you use it?

            That is an utter prove that this is nonsense. Just have it with Forces 2 and be done with it
            You need the Mind sphere to do certain Time stuff while keeping your mind immune.
            You need Entropy to see weak points in Matter or Life patterns.
            You need Correspondence to affect anything not directly in front of you.
            You need spirit to target anything beyond the gauntlet.
            How in the world is this any different?

            If you want to make you clothes act as invisibility cloaks, you need Matter.
            If you want your Cat to be invisible, you need Life.
            Forces on its own only affects Forces.

            You could make Life and Matter act similarly to Correspondence for locking purposes in that you just need to have Life at an equal level to lock.
            Alternatively you could make it so Life 2 is all you need to lock an effect onto a person (with no requirement to effects llaced on yourself)


            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 22: The Morning After

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saikou View Post

              You need the Mind sphere to do certain Time stuff while keeping your mind immune.
              You need Entropy to see weak points in Matter or Life patterns.
              You need Correspondence to affect anything not directly in front of you.
              You need spirit to target anything beyond the gauntlet.
              How in the world is this any different?

              If you want to make you clothes act as invisibility cloaks, you need Matter.
              If you want your Cat to be invisible, you need Life.
              Forces on its own only affects Forces.

              You could make Life and Matter act similarly to Correspondence for locking purposes in that you just need to have Life at an equal level to lock.
              Alternatively you could make it so Life 2 is all you need to lock an effect onto a person (with no requirement to effects llaced on yourself)
              Are you changing your life pattern with Forces? Because if you aren't, there is no relation whatsoever.

              What use of Mind would you need with Time? More importantly, do you change your mind pattern when you use Time? Or is it a side effect?

              Do you need to combine Life 1 to see the weak spots of someone when you use the Dim Mak with Entropy 1? I guess not. You use ONLY Entropy 1. That one example actually reinforce my point.

              What about using Correspondence for far effects? Corr connects space, that's why you need it, it has nothing to do with needing to put a lot of random spheres into an effect. If it were like that, you would ALWAYS need Correspondence to affect ANYTHING that you are not DIRECTLY touching. And we know that this is not the case.

              The spheres DO overlap on MANY occasions. Matter and Life can overlap on many times. You can change ressonance using Mind 2 or Prime 2, but you don't need BOTH for it. You can break an object using Matter 3 or Entropy 3, or cause damage on someone with Life 3 or Entropy 4, but you don't need BOTH spheres.

              What you are sugesting is that EVERY single aspects that some effect may touch, MUST have every spheres possible on it. It is EXACTLY the same as DEMANDING someone to use Entropy 4 toghether with Life 3 to cause damage... Something that would turn damage with life almost useless, since it would be far easier to use Prime 4 or Forces 3. Even worse: its the same as DEMANDING the use of Entropy 3 for ANY use of Matter, or DEMANDING the use of Entropy 4 for ANY use of Life, and the most absurd of all, DEMANDING Entropy 5 for ANY use of Mind.

              That's why all that is absurd and nonsense

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                Are you changing your life pattern with Forces? Because if you aren't, there is no relation whatsoever.

                What use of Mind would you need with Time? More importantly, do you change your mind pattern when you use Time? Or is it a side effect?

                Do you need to combine Life 1 to see the weak spots of someone when you use the Dim Mak with Entropy 1? I guess not. You use ONLY Entropy 1. That one example actually reinforce my point.

                What about using Correspondence for far effects? Corr connects space, that's why you need it, it has nothing to do with needing to put a lot of random spheres into an effect. If it were like that, you would ALWAYS need Correspondence to affect ANYTHING that you are not DIRECTLY touching. And we know that this is not the case.

                The spheres DO overlap on MANY occasions. Matter and Life can overlap on many times. You can change ressonance using Mind 2 or Prime 2, but you don't need BOTH for it. You can break an object using Matter 3 or Entropy 3, or cause damage on someone with Life 3 or Entropy 4, but you don't need BOTH spheres.

                What you are sugesting is that EVERY single aspects that some effect may touch, MUST have every spheres possible on it. It is EXACTLY the same as DEMANDING someone to use Entropy 4 toghether with Life 3 to cause damage... Something that would turn damage with life almost useless, since it would be far easier to use Prime 4 or Forces 3. Even worse: its the same as DEMANDING the use of Entropy 3 for ANY use of Matter, or DEMANDING the use of Entropy 4 for ANY use of Life, and the most absurd of all, DEMANDING Entropy 5 for ANY use of Mind.

                That's why all that is absurd and nonsense
                Yes, there are many ways to skin a cat, as it were, but just because the spheres overlap in areas does not mean certain spheres are entirely irrelevant. That line of thinking leads to certain spheres being inherently better than others.

                Rather, the different methods will achieve slightly different ends depending on the spheres in place.

                With Matter you can analyse what something is made of, but you need Entropy as well in order to assess its structural integrity. Entropy on its own might tell you the likelihood that the wall will break, but not where the weak point is.

                Similarly, with Life on its own you might be able to tell how "alive" something is. while Entropy tells you how close do "death" something is. The two spheres together, however, can pinpoint exactly what within the life form is failing or what is the source of its strength.

                The spheres combined will give a more detailed account of things, otherwise what's the bloody point of mixing first level spheres?

                Likewise, Entropy 4 and Life 3 do different things. Life 3 allows you to affect the pattern directly, but not the outcome. Entropy 4 allows you to affect the outcome, but not the pattern itself.
                i.e. Life 3 lets you tare at someones flesh or makes them sick, but after that the body may heal of spiral out of control without any real way for you to affect it.
                Entropy 4 allows the opposite, you can decide whether the pattern will end up stronger or weaker, but you have no control on how it gets there, be it infection, genetic, corruption, or trauma and injury.
                Life 3 and Entropy 4 combined, however, would allow you to control both the means and the outcome. Separately they work ok, but combined they are more precise.


                The spheres aren't just about what they change, but also about what they detect. When you are making a Correspondence ward on something. Corr on its own will make an impenetrable barrier which does not discriminate. If you do want it to discriminate, say against Spirits, or against anything with less than Human intelligence, you'll need Spirit and Mind respectively. This I believe is the same ideology behind locking effects. You want the Forces to change in relation to where the Life pattern of Matter pattern are. You want light, once it "touches" the life or matter pattern to "detect" they've touched it, and begin to change (by bending around it, or transforming into something else).


                Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 22: The Morning After

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                  Forces on its own only affects Forces.
                  Movement IS Forces. You don't need matter or life to create an invisibility "force field" do you?

                  If you say you do, than you would also need matter (or life) for ANY kind of telekinetic control don't you agree? You would need Matter 2 to redirect bullets, or Matter 4 to grab the gun of an attacker. Now, that looks both silly and overdemanding don't you think?

                  Now, an invisibility field, is just a distortion of the visible light. It works exactly like a kinect Field to divert bullets, but with photons instead. It doesn't matter if this Field is a half globe around you or if it is 1 milimiter away from your skin (1/10 of an inch? The size of a hair away, there you go). It isnt changing your life pattern (so, no justification for Life). And, you can make this Field move toghether with the wearer using... Forces alone (like I said, Forces 1 detect motion, Forces 2 can move stuff). So, what's REALLY the reason for Life 2? And, why randomly 2, not 3 or 4?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                    Movement IS Forces. You don't need matter or life to create an invisibility "force field" do you?

                    If you say you do, than you would also need matter (or life) for ANY kind of telekinetic control don't you agree? You would need Matter 2 to redirect bullets, or Matter 4 to grab the gun of an attacker. Now, that looks both silly and overdemanding don't you think?

                    Now, an invisibility field, is just a distortion of the visible light. It works exactly like a kinect Field to divert bullets, but with photons instead. It doesn't matter if this Field is a half globe around you or if it is 1 milimiter away from your skin (1/10 of an inch? The size of a hair away, there you go). It isnt changing your life pattern (so, no justification for Life). And, you can make this Field move toghether with the wearer using... Forces alone (like I said, Forces 1 detect motion, Forces 2 can move stuff). So, what's REALLY the reason for Life 2? And, why randomly 2, not 3 or 4?
                    You can do that, but then it'll only be active while you move. And you'd need Forces 3, not Forces 2.
                    And arguably, depending on how many successes you pump into it, you would only really start to be invisible at certain speeds, otherwise you'd just be "fading."

                    So without other spheres, you wouldn't really be able to keep that up without constantly running.
                    Last edited by Saikou; 02-25-2017, 08:13 AM.


                    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 22: The Morning After

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saikou View Post

                      You can do that, but then it'll only be active while you move. And you'd need Forces 3, not Forces 2.
                      And arguably, depending on how many successes you pump into it, you would only really start to be invisible at certain speeds, otherwise you'd just be &quot;fading.&quot;

                      So without other spheres, you wouldn't really be able to keep that up without constantly running.
                      Why?

                      The effect is simply conditioned to move toghether with the target, that's all.

                      You must understand, putting Life on an effect is to change the life pattern into something else.

                      So, unless you're changing your flesh to make it invisible (meaning that, if you rip off a finger for example, that finger will remain invisible, and if you bleed, or even if you pee or poo, you'll bleed invisible blood and poo invisible shit - not a useless thing, nevertheless), than it doesn't make ANY sense to force the use of Life.

                      Besides, it would be needed Life 3 (self) or Life 4 (others) for that to work.

                      And it's Forces 2 instead of 3 because you're not transmuting one force into another, you're not changing movement into light (invisibility is bending light, in our world scientific view). You are just making the light field match the movements of the target, you're not changing kinect force into light force; well, that's a matter of debate, you could say it's Forces 3 instead of 2, if you say that you MUST change movement into light, or if the light simply follows the movement patterns of the target (something that could be inserted with Forces 1 alone). However it may be, my argument is that you should only use Forces for this.

                      Requering Life or Matter for this, would mean that you'd also need Life or Matter for Time effects that slow/speed any targets, and just the same for Entropy usings to affect the odds of living or material patterns (even more, it is saying that you'd need Forces to use any Entropy effect that may interfere with movement - which would make Entropy useless, and just an unecessary complement of other spheres)

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                      • #12
                        Honestly, this is sort of coming across as a straw man argument, in which your setting the example up to be intentionally ludicrous to make it easier to argue against. The whole "if you do this then you MUST do this as well" does not a compelling argument.

                        My main rule of sphere magic has always been "if it can be done by degrees, then it should be" to this point, if you can use Life 2 to tie and effect to someone's pattern, then why not? I adds extra modules to spells without making them required to perform.

                        Magic in my games will affect the mage without need of too many extra parts, but in order to affect others, certain caveats appear. This makes cooperation require more thought and coordination than the simple "make us all invisible and be done with it."

                        No two spells should be wholly identical even if the end result is essentially the same. That's what I've been saying with my Life and Entropy example.

                        On a final note using Forces 1 to hang an effect on someone's kinetic energy is problematic for one big reason. No one owns kinetic energy. What distinguishes my energy from your energy? Energy is transferred and transformed. It is constantly moving and flowing ever restless and steady. It may be stored in certain ways, but stored energy by its very definition is energy that isn't doing work and is arguably more Matter than Forces.
                        Life, however, is more specific. You can identify someone by their life pattern much more easily, and with greater accuracy as it is unique to each individual.
                        Last edited by Saikou; 02-25-2017, 04:50 PM.


                        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 22: The Morning After

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                        • #13
                          Sorry, wrong thread. I cant erase posts, if a mod could do me the favor, I'll be thankfull

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