Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mythic Threads and magic rules

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    I don't remember if the books say so, though I seem to recall Brucato saying somewhere that you don't need to spend Quint to conjure. Don't quote me.
    Yes, you do not need to spend Quintessence to conjure something out of nothing in M20
    It takes a little bit of reverse-thinking for players used to Revised and reading M20, but not needing Quintessence is *why it's not mentioned* under the Prime 2/Conjuration in the M20 corebook.

    Or put differently: If you put a new player in front of a M20 book, and they read up on conjuration, they'd not even get the idea that Quintessence is needed for it. And that's how it's intended.

    You do however, as also mentioned in there, need Quintessence if you want Forces to persist after the first turn if there is no fuel for them. Say, a fire. So, hovering a fireball in mid-air for a few turns, or setting stone on fire for a prolonged period, needs Quintessence. Setting hay on fire does not.

    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    If this is true, I might suggest a middle ground between them. The conjuration itself is free, but the conjured object/organism/force won't persist beyond Duration unless Quint is spent
    And yes, that's how I handle that. In order to make a conjured item permanent, spend Quint.

    EDIT:
    And while you can of course just spend a pile of successes on making it *effectively* permanent, give that an item lasting years and years is probably enough in most cases, the key difference is that such an item can still be removed by unweaving the effect.
    I treat the added Quintessence as making the item a permanent, vanilla part of reality.
    Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-02-2017, 06:36 AM.


    >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
    >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

      Yes, you do not need to spend Quintessence to conjure something out of nothing in M20
      It takes a little bit of reverse-thinking for players used to Revised and reading M20, but not needing Quintessence is *why it's not mentioned* under the Prime 2/Conjuration in the M20 corebook.

      Or put differently: If you put a new player in front of a M20 book, and they read up on conjuration, they'd not even get the idea that Quintessence is needed for it. And that's how it's intended.

      You do however, as also mentioned in there, need Quintessence if you want Forces to persist after the first turn if there is no fuel for them. Say, a fire. So, hovering a fireball in mid-air for a few turns, or setting stone on fire for a prolonged period, needs Quintessence. Setting hay on fire does not.



      And yes, that's how I handle that. In order to make a conjured item permanent, spend Quint.

      EDIT:
      And while you can of course just spend a pile of successes on making it *effectively* permanent, give that an item lasting years and years is probably enough in most cases, the key difference is that such an item can still be removed by unweaving the effect.
      I treat the added Quintessence as making the item a permanent, vanilla part of reality.
      So, using Matter 2, conjured gold goes "POOF!" at the end of the Duration? Very "fairy gold". Must be really hard for Technocrats to deal with in almost any way that doesn't involve "Star Trek" thinking.

      For that matter, does something that was altered using magic revert back to it's original form at the end of the Duration? Which might be very weird, depending on what was changed.

      And are you talking about just using Prime 2 or actually spending Quintessence to "permanentize" an effect? Prime 2 still seems like the go-to for "Something from Nothing" as far as I can tell.

      And is there a place where it says that, if Prime &/or Quintessence is used, you can't use Unweaving?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ajax View Post

        So, using Matter 2, conjured gold goes "POOF!" at the end of the Duration? Very "fairy gold". Must be really hard for Technocrats to deal with in almost any way that doesn't involve "Star Trek" thinking.

        For that matter, does something that was altered using magic revert back to it's original form at the end of the Duration? Which might be very weird, depending on what was changed.

        And are you talking about just using Prime 2 or actually spending Quintessence to "permanentize" an effect? Prime 2 still seems like the go-to for "Something from Nothing" as far as I can tell.

        And is there a place where it says that, if Prime &/or Quintessence is used, you can't use Unweaving?

        Nah, nothing of that is explicitely stated anywhere.
        How to make an effect permanent is 'up to the ST' in M20. In Revised it was 'twice the required successes' if I recall right...? And it isn't stated anywhere if conjured things are subject to duration rules, or basically become normal part of reality instantly.

        But regarding my last post, I simply think that, *if* one uses the houserule of requiring Quintessence to make a conjuration permanent, then it makes also sense that without using Quintessece, the conjured pattern could be made effectively permanent by using a long, long duration effect - but with the disadvantage of it being unweavable. The mage has to pick their posion, and what they can pull off at the time.


        EDIT:
        Actually, regarding non-forum HDYDT ruling:

        Assume that something that’s either conjured from raw
        energy or transmuted into a different form returns to its
        original state when the spell’s duration passes. (See the
        Base Damage or Duration chart .) A “time-trigger” (see
        Time 4) can set conditions around this reversal, and a
        large number of successes might make the transformation
        permanent.
        So by HDYDT-RAW, yes, conjuration 8and changing) is bound to duration, but it also presumes the Revised rule of enough successes making it permanent. Ruling is still out on if 'permanent' means 'Without any magickal effect active anymore'.


        I kind of prefer the Quintessence rule, if anything so Quintessence becomes a little more important for conjuration again, without *requiring* it in order to conjure anything like in Revised.
        It's a nice middle ground.

        .
        Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-02-2017, 06:01 PM.


        >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
        >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

        Comment


        • #19
          Can I get a page cite on where Revised requires a Quint cost for conjuration?

          The description of Prime 2 uses the same language of ambient Tapestry energy as prior and future rules sets, and it's not mentioned in the Body of Light rote, which is what's being used. You can get there if you squint at the Matter 2 or Force 3 description, which mention Quintessence, but that seems like a stretch unless you've presupposed that there's no ambient quint, which Prime itself seems to disagree with? Is it based on the "In some cases,Quintessence must be used to build new Patterns" under "Using Quintessence"?


          I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
            Can I get a page cite on where Revised requires a Quint cost for conjuration?
            I haven't found anything like an actual set cost either.

            All I've found so far in M20 is:
            537 Other Uses for Quintessence in Magick, "Fueling new Patterns so that Life, Forces, and Matter can be created from scratch."
            313 Forces "Quintessence flows within such Patterns, so a mage can conjure new forces simply by adding some Quintessence to “empty space.”"
            516 Life "A true Master,therefore, may end life, but he may also create it from pure energy (that is, from Quintessence) ... "
            520 Prime "Attaining a degree of control over Prime energies, the mage may divert Quintessence into new or existing forms. Combined with other Spheres, this allows that mage to create new Forces, Life, or Matter Patterns (conjuring them from thin air)..."

            I've always taken this to mean you only spend Quintessence (like 1 point when I run a game) for creating something from absolutely nothing (nothing but quintessence) and that you could create stuff from other available patterns of that sort anyway without expending quintessence (rocks from air, fire from the sound of your incantations and the force of the movements of your hands, or a rabbit from all the microscopic life around you), so it never came up as an issue in my games.

            I would like to know if there's anything definitive on this too.
            Last edited by Spacecat; 03-02-2017, 07:59 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

              I kind of prefer the Quintessence rule, if anything so Quintessence becomes a little more important for conjuration again, without *requiring* it in order to conjure anything like in Revised.
              It's a nice middle ground.
              The issue is still going to come up with dealing with Matter effects. Sure Forces wink out, but to have stuff just vanish seems like it builds a little Paradox into every conjurationwhere you don't make it permanent. After all, aside from socks in the dryer, things don't just disappear all that often.

              And, if Duration is this big thing on effects, why is it only for out right conjuration? It doesn't make much sense to say "Duration matters with X but not with Y". Seems like you should need to spend a Quint or get massive Duration on alterations as well. If your pile of gold goes "POOF!" if you don't "seal the deal" with a Quint or pour on the rolls for Duration, then why does this pile of plastic baby toys I just turned into gold stay gold forever? In a "sauce for the goose" parity, the same rules should apply.

              Which isn't a bad thing really. That seems like a good rational for all those stories of gold coins that turn (back) into dried up leaves a couple of hours after the transaction.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                And, if Duration is this big thing on effects, why is it only for out right conjuration? It doesn't make much sense to say "Duration matters with X but not with Y". Seems like you should need to spend a Quint or get massive Duration on alterations as well.
                Huh? I never said it should apply only for conjuration. As I said, by HDYDT-RAW it applies to transformations as well. I think that it can be, as you said, neat in a fluff way. Technically by RAW duration matters for each and every magickal effect unless it's made permanent
                I bet somebody can come up with neat ways of making a set duration work in your favor, too..


                Originally posted by Spacecat View Post
                I haven't found anything like an actual set cost either.
                There is no Quint cost for conjuration by M20 RAW. Phil confirmed that Quintessence in those cases means the free floating quintessence around. See the last posts right in here about the very topic.

                Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                Can I get a page cite on where Revised requires a Quint cost for conjuration?
                Which comes back to this. The reason why Revised people were asking Phil about the Quintessence cost in the first place, was because it was..not outright stated in Revised, but implied through unclear wording. Kind of like in M20, now that I am looking at Spacecat's quotes.

                The Revied corebook itself states it on page 172, matter conjuration:

                The mage
                can give a spirit a physical representation or create an object ac-
                cording to a mental image with Quintessence.
                Which a lot of people took as meaning that conjuring matter needs actual points of Quintessence. If they were RIGHT about it or not in regards to the original Revised corebook, I'm not sure, but it's been kind of treated like it by many. It's why Phil clarified for M20.
                Of course in Revised it might just as well originally mean free floating quintessence like it does in M20, but at least it's clarified now.




                >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
                >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels

                Comment


                • #23
                  HR:
                  I use either Prime 2, or, if someone is not skilled (enough) in Prime, they can spend 2 Quint instead.
                  Last edited by Nonsense; 03-03-2017, 08:43 AM. Reason: typo


                  So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

                    Huh? I never said it should apply only for conjuration. As I said, by HDYDT-RAW it applies to transformations as well. I think that it can be, as you said, neat in a fluff way. Technically by RAW duration matters for each and every magickal effect unless it's made permanent
                    I bet somebody can come up with neat ways of making a set duration work in your favor, too..
                    Then we are in complete accord. When the topic is brought up, it fixates on the "something from nothing" side and doesn't usually address that transformations share many of the same concerns.

                    But, to take it a step further, using your "Add Quintessence for Durability" HR, flip back from Matter conjurations to Forces... If I create a bonfire in mid-air with Forces 2 (b/c I LIVE for Paradox) and spend a point of Quintessence, does that bonfire hang around forever? Needing no fuel having been just written into reality? (BTW, do I need to have Prime 2 to have the option to spend the Quint for permanence? Or can I do with just Forces and the Quint?)

                    House Flambeau mages across reality wait for your answer with bated breath....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I recently did a comparative reading of all four editions, and I think I've got a good understanding of how Prime and Quint are supposed to work. I don't really think any of the books are entirely consistent, but here's a framework that makes sense to me.

                      Raw Quintessence means two separate things. The first is a great pool of Quintessence that flows through the tapestry giving everything substance. Let’s call this Tapestry Quint. The second is the quintessence bound into patterns. The quintessence in Life patterns are connected to Tapestry Quint, but matter is only connected to it briefly when that matter first comes into being. Let’s call this second type Pattern Quint.
                      Free Quintessence is the kind of Quintessence measured in points or pawns. It’s found in nodes, tass, wonders, and in Awakened Avatars.
                      1. Prime 1 lets you see free quintessence in tass, wonders, nodes, etc and absorb it beyond the limits of your Avatar rating through consuming tass or being recharged by a Mage with Prime 3.
                      2. Prime 2 lets you become aware of Tapestry Quint and use it in conjunction with Pattern Spheres to make new patterns from nothing. Basically, if you are creating a pattern (like Life, Forces, or Matter) from nothing, then you need Prime 2 in order to “connect” it to the raw quintessence flowing through the Tapestry. This gives your pattern just enough substance to exist. This process does not cost you any personal points since the Quintessence comes from the tapestry.
                      3. Prime 3 lets you start manipulating Free Quintessence. If your effect requires you to shape or transfer your own personal store of free quintessence for any reason, such as to make a beam of holy quintessential energy or perhaps to give someone else your Quintessence points, then you need Prime 3 to channel your personal store of quintessence. Prime 3 can also make little one-off magic items. Potions and other consumables.
                      4. Prime 4 allows you to start messing around with Pattern Quint but only as it relates to Matter. Think of it as draining or reinforcing the realness of matter. (As a side note, this level of understanding allows Mages to start making permanent Wonders.
                      5. Prime 5 lets you manipulate the connection between the Pattern Quint in Life patterns and the Tapestry Quint they’re connected to. You can overload someone, blessing them, or drain the life force from them. Once you hit this level of mastery, you can grab any form of quint from any source, and start making Nodes.


                        So, what do you do with your Free Quint points?
                        Non-prime mages can use those points to reduce the difficulty of Arete rolls.

                        Prime mages can use quint to power magickal effects separate from themselves. Meaning, if they enchant an item with Prime 4 to make a Talisman or Device, every time that thing fires off its spell, it costs a point of Quint. This is also the case if a Life mage tries to make a being (such as a dragon) that has magical abilities. This is a bit like a living Talisman. Each use costs quint. The last thing is making weapons out of free quint. Lightsabers!

                        Prime mages can also enchant objects (prime 2) and living beings (prime 3) so they can do aggravated damage.
                      Last edited by Octavo; 03-05-2017, 02:54 PM.


                      Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
                      Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        What is strange is, you can use Prime 2 to fuel "background" Quint into patterns, but you need Prime 5 to suck that out for yourself, and Prime 3 to fuel patterns with Tass.

                        So, its easier to use Quint out of thin air than of Tass, or to fuel your Avatar with that same Quint (lets not forget that you can fuel your avatar in a Node even without knowing Prime at all)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Octavo View Post
                          [*]Prime 2 lets you become aware of Tapestry Quint and use it in conjunction with Pattern Spheres to make new patterns from nothing. Basically, if you are creating a pattern (like Life, Forces, or Matter) from nothing, then you need Prime 2 in order to “connect” it to the raw quintessence flowing through the Tapestry. This gives your pattern just enough substance to exist. This process does not cost you any personal points since the Quintessence comes from the tapestry.[/list]
                          You can sense this "tapestry Quint" and even the "pattern Quint" in the form of ressonance with Prime 1.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AgentSmith View Post
                            You can sense this "tapestry Quint" and even the "pattern Quint" in the form of ressonance with Prime 1.
                            Ah, good point! I always forget about resonance.


                            Mage: the Awakening 2E - Hogwarts: the Wizarding World Chronicle
                            Mummy: the Curse - Lightweight 2E Conversion; Disciples of Duat

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              For my money: I like all of the quint-for-permanence and quint-for-something-for-nothing house rules, but I'd also remove the Prime-2-to-borrow-local-quint effect. It's completely out of place for the sphere. Prime makes you able to get a lot more quint than other mages - so why does it also keep you from needing that quint? Plus it avoids characters that invest in a sphere for just one effect, like Time for hanging effects.

                              This makes quint much more valuable so a game with these rules would need some nodes. Or "alternative sources" (vampire vitae, werewolf caerns, etc.).

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X