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  • Initiative

    Hey, I hope everyone is having a good day.
    So, I was wondering is it possible to use Time 2 or time 3 to gain higher initiative before a fight?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Leonardo View Post
    Hey, I hope everyone is having a good day.
    So, I was wondering is it possible to use Time 2 or time 3 to gain higher initiative before a fight?
    If you use it before a fight, yes

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    • #3
      There are some ponderations however.

      Time 3 speeds Time. So, if you use it, you'll always be on "fast foward" mode. You'll move faster, breath faster, blink faster, and even talk faster. That sight would be... Disturbing.

      What you looking for in here is not that. You don't wanna a constant foward pressed.

      What you're looking for is that small burst of just a few microseconds at the right time. You don't wanna the effect always on, just a small "switch on" burst for a brief moment.

      Sadly, that means you'll need to hang the spell and place a conditional trigger.

      For that, you'll need Time 4 (hang spell) and Entropy 2 (conditional trigger - whenever in the risk of violence).

      It's easier to use Mind 1 for that (to sharpen your perceptions

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      • #4
        Maybe you could use Time 2 to get a split second glimpse of the very near future, a few seconds ahead every second or so, and use this to react properly, effectively speeding your reaction time? Or maybe a parallel sense of things to come that's kinda like knowing the next block in tetris.

        Or as per M20, use Time 3 and (Life 3/Mind 1), to go back in time while recalling events from the future you just left to simply "win" initiative?
        Last edited by Spacecat; 03-01-2017, 09:14 AM.

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        • #5
          Reactions of the future Self
          (Mind, Time and Life at 2 each)
          You react as if you knew. Win Initiative if you score 3 successes. If not, get +2 Ini per success.


          So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Spacecat View Post
            Maybe you could use Time 2 to get a split second glimpse of the very near future, a few seconds ahead every second or so, and use this to react properly, effectively speeding your reaction time? Or maybe a parallel sense of things to come that's kinda like knowing the next block in tetris.
            Wow, that's actually a good one! Well done, I hadn't thought about that...

            Now, for the mechanics:

            Time 2 allows see the future. Ok. But we dont really want that always on, specially because it would just give you weird visions at the worst possible times, and not just visions of your "next turn"... Well, you COULD make a "next turn" vision always on... But that would be absurdly... Disturbing... And would potencially hinder you instead of helping (just try to imagine you constantly seeing two different frames of reality, just one (or a few) seconds apart... At a point you wouldn't even know which picture is "now" and which is "after".
            No, you'll need the Mind 1 effect, Multitask. Just let that image of the future rolling in another mind inside of your head... And just ignore it, most of the time. That will remain like if rolling in your subconscious... But any time you need, your attention goes to it.
            So, Time 2, Mind 1

            Originally posted by Spacecat View Post
            Or as per M20, use Time 3 and (Life 3/Mind 1), to go back in time while recalling events from the future you just left to simply "win" initiative?
            Why is it needed Life 3 and Mind 1?
            I can see that M20 is a total trash by the way... This is a simple basic power, no Basic Power should need other spheres to make its basic action (For example, altering odds with Entropy 2 ALONE shouldnt need other spheres, nor should Life 2/3 heal... Those are CORE powers - just like Time 3 "Try Again".



            Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
            Reactions of the future Self
            (Mind, Time and Life at 2 each)
            You react as if you knew. Win Initiative if you score 3 successes. If not, get +2 Ini per success.
            Its all good, but why Mind 2? Mind 2 is emotional control and superficial mind reading... What does that have to do? And why Life 2 (heal self, change simple creature)?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

              Why is it needed Life 3 and Mind 1?
              I can see that M20 is a total trash by the way... This is a simple basic power, no Basic Power should need other spheres to make its basic action (For example, altering odds with Entropy 2 ALONE shouldnt need other spheres, nor should Life 2/3 heal... Those are CORE powers - just like Time 3 "Try Again".
              M20 chart on pg 509:
              Rewind Time Time 3*

              * Turning back time adds +3 difficulty and is always vulgar.
              Also:
              Prophecy/ Hindsight Mind 2/ Time 2; or Time 2
              M20 Time sphere pg 522:
              Combining this Rank with other Spheres, the mage can
              affect other Patterns (Forces, Life, or Matter 2), cast Effects
              across distance and time (Correspondence 3), move back in
              time while recalling events from the future she just left (Life 3/
              Mind 1), or even invoke multiple probabilities (Entropy 3).
              Again, such attempts are Paradox magnets with awful long term
              consequences.

              I think the intent here is that you can rewind time no problem but cannot recall the events of the future you left without some other component. M20 also seems to be written in such a way for allowing for multiple interpretations of how you can accomplish magickal effects. That doesn't make it trash, but instead makes it even more flexible to individual Storytellers. Either way I agree that requiring Life 3 is a bit out of place for this type of effect. Mind 1 is definitely a necessity for what you're trying to accomplish.

              Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
              Its all good, but why Mind 2? Mind 2 is emotional control and superficial mind reading... What does that have to do? And why Life 2 (heal self, change simple creature)?
              Mind 2 also allows you to read memories that have been left behind on objects or places. Combined with Time 2 you can read these things before they happen. If you're only looking into your own Pattern then you only need time. When trying to affect the pattern of other things or people or locations you need to involve other spheres.
              Last edited by PazuzuAxelf; 03-01-2017, 10:25 PM.

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              • #8
                M20 spheres just seem more trash to me with each passing moment, and the worst of all is that HDYDT.

                I mean, what's the use of Time 3 "try again CORE POWER if it is totally useless alone? (Oh no, pardon me, its not useless, youll take Paradox EVERY FUCKING TIME you use it, and since you won't remember a thing, things will just repeat non stop (because you're still going to be punched, and will return the loop because of it), until you get a sufficient backlash to send you to weirdland Umbral city of Paradox

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post
                  .

                  Mind 2 also allows you to read memories that have been left behind on objects or places. Combined with Time 2 you can read these things before they happen. If you're only looking into your own Pattern then you only need time. When trying to affect the pattern of other things or people or locations you need to involve other spheres.
                  You still dont need Mind 2 to see the future, unless you wanna see future toughts. Period.

                  And you're NOT "looking into your own pattern". What the hell does that even mean?

                  No, when you use Time, your senses are transported there, as if you were present in that future or past time. You CAN only see as far as your mundane senses can, so, here is where other spheres enter. But I dont need ANYTHING else to see somebody punching my face where I'm, just a few moments from Now... And, after seing my enemy punching my face, I dont need Mind 2 to guess his toughts

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                    M20 spheres just seem more trash to me with each passing moment, and the worst of all is that HDYDT.
                    I mean, what's the use of Time 3 "try again CORE POWER if it is totally useless alone?
                    Calm down. Take a deep breath. Everything will be alright.

                    Time 3 is actually one of the cases where HDYDT does a *good* job and actually logically explains the nuances of use, why and when you need to use other spheres with Time 3 going a few turns back, and when you do not:
                    There is turning back (rebooting) your surroundings only, and there is actually warping the last few turns including yourself. Remember that Time 3 is rewinding, not traveling back.

                    * When you only reboot your surroundings back a few turns, you do *not* need Mind or Life. However, any injuries you sustained, afflictions you have and other such things stay on you, because you yourself remain right in place and in your current state. Your body does not get rewound. Only your surroundings go in reverse.

                    * The other use case, completely warping back the last few turns, means that not only your surroundings do rewind but your body *goes in reverse as well*. You, just like the surroundings, rewind up until the point you chose. For *that* you need Life and Mind to retain your memories as your body undergoes the reversal as everything else does - which has the advantage that any wounds you received, etc., also get removed. You need Mind so that, despite your brain also going in reverse, you keep the memories. Simple as that. Sucks if you were sitting on a chair in the tattoo parlor though.

                    And no, you do not need Mind to speed up or slow down Time, glance back and forward into the future without additional sights, etc., so all in all Time is far from useless on its own.

                    Oh, and by the way, here's the ruling from Revised, pre-M20:

                    By combining Life and Mind with the Effect, the mage
                    can actually rewind herself physically and undo the effects of
                    physical trauma, while still retaining her memory of the events
                    that never happened.
                    Last edited by Ambrosia; 03-02-2017, 04:03 AM.


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                    • #11
                      That makes a lot of sense.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
                        Wow, that's actually a good one! Well done, I hadn't thought about that...

                        Now, for the mechanics:

                        Time 2 allows see the future. Ok. But we dont really want that always on, specially because it would just give you weird visions at the worst possible times, and not just visions of your "next turn"... Well, you COULD make a "next turn" vision always on... But that would be absurdly... Disturbing... And would potencially hinder you instead of helping (just try to imagine you constantly seeing two different frames of reality, just one (or a few) seconds apart... At a point you wouldn't even know which picture is "now" and which is "after".
                        No, you'll need the Mind 1 effect, Multitask. Just let that image of the future rolling in another mind inside of your head... And just ignore it, most of the time. That will remain like if rolling in your subconscious... But any time you need, your attention goes to it.
                        So, Time 2, Mind 1
                        I doubt you'd need mind 1 unless you absolutely have to see all of the future and all of the present at the same time. Example again would be the Tetris block piece preview. The mind can adapt to a certain degree as long as the past and the present are not shown with equal clarity. It might be confusing until you get the hang of it; but it should work enough to help with your reactions if it's just a blip of the future regularly every second, or a ghostly image, or something you can tune into while waiting for your opponent's next move; and you don't get hung up on seeing reality in a normal way. It's supposedly the explanation for the Cult of Ecstasy stoned look.

                        I think with Time 2 and Mind 1 there would be no chance of you not being able to go ahead of your opponent since you have a few seconds head start and are assured of being able to react properly. You'd effectively "win" initiative and could possibly use additional successes to help with your difficulties against what actions you already know will happen.

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