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Human organs creation using Life sphere

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  • Human organs creation using Life sphere

    I'm trying to develop a concept of a low-power enlightened doctor that somehow synthetizes artificial human organs for transplant. Using M20 corebook and HDYDT books, I know that with Life 4 it is possible to create such organ and implant it into the patient, using the medical equipment and the surgery as a focus.

    But, If said character were to do something simpler, like, say, transform raw meat into a temporarily transplantable organ, and perfoming the surgery by mundane means, which spheres should he use? My best guess is matter 2 (for the raw meat) to life 3 (medium complexity for creating a human organ). What do you think?

  • #2
    Matter 2, Life 3, Prime 2 (perhaps Time?)

    you are trying to revive Life function of something that has undergone Cell Death, You need Matter to anchor the initial effects to the base meterial you may need a Time Effect thrown in to transform the dead flesh to it's pre-Cell Death state, then a Life effect to make the Meat in to a compatible organ and Prime to sustain the effects until the organ can be integrated in to the recipients Pattern

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    • #3
      Matter 2 / Life 3 sounds good to me, too. Time shouldn't be needed, although Prime 2 doesn't hurt to vitalize the matter.
      After that just preserve and transplant the old fashioned way.

      BONUS:
      You might be able to use Life 3 to also analyze the organ inside the patient, so the meat gets transformed into a virtual clone of the patient's organ, just in a healthy state.


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      • #4
        To add, this whole shebang can actually be pulled off in a Coincidental way. We live in a time where we have started to actually 3D print living tissue for transplants in RL, so if said Mage works with a similiar (but of course much improved!) setup, nobody will think that something is..off.


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        • #5
          Well... The easiest way would be to produce those in ANOTHER living being. That would still technically be Life 4... But if we consider that an organ is a "simpler lifeform" than a fully grown human being, than yeah, we could adapt it for those limited uses to be in the spectrum of Life 2/3 (so, those tribal Shamans that shrink the heads of their fallen enemies, could do it with Life 2 only).

          This kind of procedure can be VERY powerful, because lets the Mage do things he couldn't... At least in theory.

          Remember to make all those organs permanent (unless you wanna a heart that you've grown from lettuce to returning to its vegetal state. Inside the host. While this may sound terrible, it can, in fact, be quite useful. Make those corporates your slaves by requiring constant upkeep on their "miraculous hearts")

          Besides that, you'll also need anti rejection drugs. Simple drugs for "normal" organs, that just do whatever a common organ do, but if your "super enhanced heart" gives you +1 Stamina cardio bonus, or muscle with +1 Strenght, lungs that can remain under water for an hour and things like that, you'll need special "hiperscience" drugs or alchemical compounds. Over time however, those transplants take their toll over the health of the patient.

          I've been just thinking, Matter 4/Life 3 is all you need to get those cool Cyber augments, but if you wanna reliable cybers without all those side effects (permadox and genetic flaws are enough), you should go for the Life 4 version

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          • #6
            Originally posted by AgentSmith View Post
            Besides that, you'll also need anti rejection drugs.
            That's exactly why I suggested using Life 3 to also analyze the heart of the patient - so the heart created out of the meat won't get rejected, as it essentially is their own


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            • #7
              I think you will need Life 4:

              At this Rank, the mage may enact radical changes on any complex
              organism – people, dogs, horses, and so forth. He can uplift other
              species with new limbs, opposable thumbs, increased brain capacity,
              etc., so long as he doesn’t change their intrinsic nature.

              Because Life 3 only works on simple organisms and I doubt that StoryTellers would let you get away with saying that an organ is a simple lifeform:

              Advanced understanding allows the mage to radically
              alter simple organisms (turning a tree inside-out); transform
              one into another (changing fruit into insects); or – with Prime 2 – conjure
              them from raw energy.

              Quotes from M20 pp516-517, YMMV.

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              • #8
                However, you can heal complex organisms with Life 3, soo..
                Yeah, I think it's a thing that might be quite up to the ST in this case I think, wether separately growing/cloning a single organ constitutes a complex organism effect or not.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

                  That's exactly why I suggested using Life 3 to also analyze the heart of the patient - so the heart created out of the meat won't get rejected, as it essentially is their own
                  Well, lets think it over a little bit.

                  Lets say, for example, that the patient's heart have a genetic flaw that makes it somehow flawed, which could cause a series of problems (well, that would be the reason to need a transplant in the first place).

                  Some times, you can correct the problem with a "simple" cirurgy.

                  If thats the case, there is no reason to grown a new heart, you can just open the person, use Life 3 in his own heart, and put it back in place.

                  Yes, you could of course grown a new one in a tube, and make the correction on it.

                  If, however, it is something a cirurgy can't fix, and a transplant is needed, things get messed.

                  You can grow a new heart, with just some minor genetic alterations, to make the new heart healthy.

                  Thing is, when you alter its DNA, it will get rejected by the body.

                  Not to mention that, if you change somebody eyes to be as good as the eyes of an eagle, thats surely going to cause rejection.

                  Thats all from a scientific viewpoint of course, but you can generalize it for any mystical views either... "The growth organs cause rejection because they aren't born by the same animating life force", or "their humurous aren't EXACTLY the same, even thou they are very close", and so on.

                  All that is also a good excuse to say "To make organs with fiiting DNA, or with connected life force or with the same humurous fluids, you need Life 4"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                    I think you will need Life 4:

                    At this Rank, the mage may enact radical changes on any complex
                    organism – people, dogs, horses, and so forth. He can uplift other
                    species with new limbs, opposable thumbs, increased brain capacity,
                    etc., so long as he doesn’t change their intrinsic nature.

                    Because Life 3 only works on simple organisms and I doubt that StoryTellers would let you get away with saying that an organ is a simple lifeform:

                    Advanced understanding allows the mage to radically
                    alter simple organisms (turning a tree inside-out); transform
                    one into another (changing fruit into insects); or – with Prime 2 – conjure
                    them from raw energy.

                    Quotes from M20 pp516-517, YMMV.
                    Yes, RAW it would be it.

                    What we are discussing here would fall much more under house rules or headcannon, or at must, interpretation of cannon.

                    Like I said, it would depend totally on if the ST would consider separated organs as "simple life" or not (well, a human liver is "simpler" than a shrimp from a biochemical viewpoint)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                      However, you can heal complex organisms with Life 3, soo..
                      Yeah, I think it's a thing that might be quite up to the ST in this case I think, wether separately growing/cloning a single organ constitutes a complex organism effect or not.
                      I never like that whole Life 2/3 for heal... Specially, I hate that rule of self heal being easier than healing others, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

                      To me, the only reason for that is for game balance (requiring Life 4 to start healing would be too tough on players), not real mechanics logic.

                      And I also dont like that you need one extra level to do on others what you can do to yourself, it also doesn't make sense. You should be able to give claws to someone with Life 3, as well as you should be able to turn frogs into dragons with Life 5 (not just ridiculously small ones).

                      That again, looks like just another game balance done, that doesn't really make any sense.

                      So, in my own house rules, I set ANY healing or Life damage (to complex organisms, for invertabrates and non animals is Life 2) as Life 3, and I make all the effects that you can use on yourself, usable on others (so, those modifications I make it to be Life 3 anyway)

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                      • #12
                        Yes. Healing a patient using some sort of special organ adaptation, cleaning any genetic flaw, etc is Life 4, as stated in M20. Removing small genetic flaws is Life 3 if we believe Progenitors revised (basically, an inversion of the Destructive Genegineering procedure).

                        My idea is, to create externally a rather generic organ, compatible with the patient, and then transplant it using mundane medicine (with anti-rejection drugs and immunosupressants). Of course, such effect might even be temporary, but that's part of the idea (insert evil laughter).

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                        • #13
                          >Like I said, it would depend totally on if the ST would consider separated organs as "simple life" or not (well, a human liver is "simpler" than a shrimp from a biochemical viewpoint)
                          Not from a DNA point of view though - although then we are getting into a science paradigm...


                          In fact whether an organism is simple or complex probably depends a lot on your paradigm/belief system.

                          For science based tech paradigms you would have to start considering the tree of life, evolution, and size/complexity of DNA and chromosomes. Which means that birds could be considered the same as humans.

                          Whereas with a more 'pimitive'* belief system all animals could be considered 'simpler' than humans.

                          *I can't think of a better word to describe the opposite of scientific
                          Last edited by Dogstar; 03-06-2017, 11:25 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                            Not from a DNA point of view though - although then we are getting into a science paradigm...
                            Oh, thats where you're mistaken... You'd be surprised my friend...

                            This idea of "evolution" is a XIX century idea. The concept of "evolution" (as in, betterment, basically, the idea that life came from simple forms, and it got successive improvements, until reaching the Human form, the apex of evolutionary complexity).
                            The XXI century "theory of evolution" sees it as CHANGE. The organisms dont IMPROVE, they just change over time.
                            You know, there are plants with more complex DNA than us.
                            Many apes have more chromossomes than us.
                            DNA aint all that matters for complexity or not, also, it ISNT DNA alone, despite popular belief, that determines the living being. Organisms are a complex interaction; the same gene can get different interaction under differently situations, which means, the same DNA sequences can produce different results (for example, a gene can produce Protein A under the enzim X, but the same gene will instead produce Protein B if it is under the influence of enzim Y. So, if the mother of a baby only produces enzim Y, that baby will only have Protein B, even if he have the gene to produce Protein A).
                            Thats why the Genome Project failed; simply knowing DNA sequences is useless, you need to know all the biochemestry of a being to know how that biochemestry will activate or surpresa its genetic expression (in the example I gave - maybe, under an excessive amount of Protein B, another unrelated gene, the gene that produces the enzime Y is supressed, and the gene that produces enzime X activated, so, after the cell producing too much Protein B, another pair of genes would interfere, making THE SAME GENE start to produce Protein A once again... And the same process would occur, after too much production of the Protein A.
                            Now, try to imagine this same process working for hundreds of thousands of different genes, which can have different expressions under some millions of different proteins, sugars, oils, inorganic components and many many other kinds of biochemical components.
                            Thats why you would need a quantum computer to predict all those interactions - well, maybe thats not a problem for technocrats)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                              Not from a DNA point of view though - although then we are getting into a science paradigm...


                              In fact whether an organism is simple or complex probably depends a lot on your paradigm/belief system.

                              For science based tech paradigms you would have to start considering the tree of life, evolution, and size/complexity of DNA and chromosomes. Which means that birds could be considered the same as humans.

                              Whereas with a more 'pimitive'* belief system all animals could be considered 'simpler' than humans.

                              *I can't think of a better word to describe the opposite of scientific
                              We can't mix "Paradigm" with "Game Mechanics". Grass can be more complex, from a biochemichal viewpoint, than a shark.

                              Those matters ARENT a matter of "scientific accuracy" or even of Paradigm, but rather, a matter of game balance and practical rules.

                              You dont give a "better Spirit Sphere" to Dreamspeakers because "uh, they are so badassess with spirits". No, you use THE SAME spirit Sphere, but they can make different uses of it than a VE with Dimensional Science, for example.

                              Same Sphere, different uses.

                              Same mechanics, different applications under Paradigms.

                              That differentiation of "simple" and "complex" life as vertebrates and anything-else is NOT a scientific division. But, it fullfills the purposes of the game mechanics - and it is good for Technocrats or Verbena.

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