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  • Correspondence

    Ok so, in page 513 it says "Most spells require physical touch" and to affect a target near you, you need at least correspondence 2, is that true and is that also applied on time sphere, life sphere and forces for example:-
    Time sphere if I'm trying to dilate someone. Life sphere if I'm trying to affect their patterns and harm or paralyze them or forces if I want to use gravity on them?
    Thanks in advance.

  • #2
    You need Correspondence to cast an effect over a distance, that's right. But Corr is kind of a special case in this one.

    To lock an effect on a pattern, you need the appropriate sphere (say, life sphere to lock an effect on a living body). But that's only beeing used, if you want to cast an effect on someone/something that has a duration. You can cast fire on someone with simple Forces magic. But cursing somebody to have bad luck for the next two weeks needs to lock the effect with Life 2. It's Matter 2 for unliving matter and Forces 2 for, well, forces if you want to lock effects on them. That's the pattern spheres.

    To use an effect with Correspondence, you actually need a Corr-Rating as high as the highest sphere you'd be using in the effect. You want to curse someone who is'nt near you? Well you better not only have Entropy 3 and Life 2, but also Corr 3, so you can actually cast that Entropy effect at a distance.

    On the actuall effects, like paralyzing or dilating time, use this general rule of thumb:
    Sphere 1: Sensory powers
    Sphere 2: minor control of the things you can sense at rank 1
    Sphere 3: Create (in case of pattern sphere, with help of Prime 2), or greater controll, generally effect others with the things you could use on yourself with rank 2

    There's also much difference in certain spheres, but the rulebooks describe this with much detail.

    To use a spell at a distance, with Corr, you might also need to roll additional successes, which are listed at a special chart (Correspondence Range Chart). It tells you exactly how many successes you need to roll, to effect certain things.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Leonardo View Post
      Ok so, in page 513 it says "Most spells require physical touch" and to affect a target near you, you need at least correspondence 2, is that true and is that also applied on time sphere, life sphere and forces for example:-
      Time sphere if I'm trying to dilate someone. Life sphere if I'm trying to affect their patterns and harm or paralyze them or forces if I want to use gravity on them?
      Thanks in advance.
      Actually, it says "Most Effects require touch or close contact, but Correspondence lets the mage reach across distances and affect hidden or faraway targets."

      While this seems to suggest what you say, what "most" and "close contact" means is not clearly defined and the idea is contradicted by a line in page 543. "a typical Effect affects one target within the caster’s clear sensory range."

      Since this latter statement seems more clearly defined and is in step 4 of the rules for casting magickal effects, I'd use it as the actual rule.

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      • #4
        The OP and myself are from the same community. What he has failed to mention was that we are specifically trying to find out about altering the patterns of a person or object.

        "To manipulate other objects or beings in ways
        other than physical contact, however, that mage must combine
        Correspondence with another Sphere – typically a Pattern
        Sphere (Forces, Life, or Matter)."
        The question I have is this. If you wish to alter the patterns of a physical being or a physical object and you do not have correspondence, do you need to touch that person?

        Example: Life Three, Heal Others. Without Correspondence 2 (Touch) Would you need to place hands upon the person you are healing?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Shmoits View Post
          The question I have is this. If you wish to alter the patterns of a physical being or a physical object and you do not have correspondence, do you need to touch that person?

          Example: Life Three, Heal Others. Without Correspondence 2 (Touch) Would you need to place hands upon the person you are healing?
          According to page 543. "a typical Effect affects one target within the caster’s clear sensory range.". This means, you do not need touch and perceiving the target directly and clearly is good enough. Also according to page 543 you need correspondence if "your target is out of sight, behind barriers, or otherwise beyond the normal reach of your senses"

          (My Rationale: Since the mention of close contact or touch in page 513 says "most" effects, it can be reasoned that "some" effects don't require touch or close contact. This does not contest that you need Correspondence for effects that "reach across distances, even to places she cannot see or touch." Thus, it is within the mage's capabilities to cast effects beyond touch and close contact so long as these are not "across distances", as clarified by the rules in page 543.)

          There are complications, however:
          A mage is also limited by belief system. Since magical healing is generally portrayed as being done while at least within reach of the patient, most mages will not know to cast healing from across a room, even though they could. They might even have correspondence, but if they don't understand that they can heal at a distance, they won't even try to do so.

          Edit:

          That said, mage is about exploration of new concepts and people doing things they never thought possible.
          If all that's keeping a mage from healing someone from across a room is belief, then the mage can modify this belief by finding a method that fits their belief system and still works at range. For a Hermetic, this might mean developing a new spell to do the job. For a Chorister, maybe sufficiently sincere prayer will work the same as the laying of hands. For an Ecstatic, maybe music or medicinal fumes will do the trick. Whatever works really.

          Healing someone across greater distances using correspondence has its own mechanical considerations (such as requiring Correspondence at least of a level equal to the level of the sphere effect being used at range)

          Last edited by Spacecat; 04-04-2017, 05:21 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Shmoits View Post
            The OP and myself are from the same community. What he has failed to mention was that we are specifically trying to find out about altering the patterns of a person or object.

            "To manipulate other objects or beings in ways
            other than physical contact, however, that mage must combine
            Correspondence with another Sphere – typically a Pattern
            Sphere (Forces, Life, or Matter)."
            The question I have is this. If you wish to alter the patterns of a physical being or a physical object and you do not have correspondence, do you need to touch that person?

            Example: Life Three, Heal Others. Without Correspondence 2 (Touch) Would you need to place hands upon the person you are healing?

            Depends on your crafts and tools, really. Most healing spells are touch based, like acupuncture, bandaging, rubbing an ointment or creme on the subject or something. But you could try to brew a healing potion or make some kind of pill for the subject to take. In the last examples you wouldn't use Correspondence but Matter 2 to lock the healing effect on the pill/brew. Your ST might decide the effect doesn't work like that or only has a certain strength (say, you still can only roll Arete once to make the pill, no redos) to balance the whole thing. It also might be vulgar, as a pill shouldn't close wounds.

            Edit: Also, to cast a Life 3 Effect on distance with Correspondence, you'd still need Corr3, as your maximum Correspondence dictates how high your spheres can be, when cast on distance.

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            • #7
              As an enemy of sphere bloat I have some things to say...

              It is RAW that you can heal someone with Life 3.
              If your instrument happens to be a potion, then you can do so if someone imbibes said potion while in clear sensory range of you.
              If the potion is used without you present, it has no (magickal) effect.

              Regarding locking:
              If you want to circumvent the penalty for upholding an effect you need to lock the effect.
              You must have the pattern sphere in question at a rank that lets you alter the target pattern. For example cursing someone with Entropy needs Life 4, not 2. At a distance it would require Correspondence and Life at 4 plus Entropy.
              This gets houseruled a lot.
              If you want to give someone bad feelings for a long time you can do it with Correspondence 2 and Mind 2. You don't need to lock the effect if you can live with another effect that taxes your concentration (+1 per 2 effects running).


              So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
                As an enemy of sphere bloat I have some things to say...

                It is RAW that you can heal someone with Life 3.
                If your instrument happens to be a potion, then you can do so if someone imbibes said potion while in clear sensory range of you.
                If the potion is used without you present, it has no (magickal) effect.

                Regarding locking:
                If you want to circumvent the penalty for upholding an effect you need to lock the effect.
                You must have the pattern sphere in question at a rank that lets you alter the target pattern. For example cursing someone with Entropy needs Life 4, not 2. At a distance it would require Correspondence and Life at 4 plus Entropy.
                This gets houseruled a lot.
                If you want to give someone bad feelings for a long time you can do it with Correspondence 2 and Mind 2. You don't need to lock the effect if you can live with another effect that taxes your concentration (+1 per 2 effects running).
                Is it common consensus to require Life to lock an Entropy 4 curse effect? We generaly don't require this since Entropy 4 is able to effect living patterns we except this as all that is required, even for locking the effect. Otherwise it's back to sphere bloat.

                We see Entropy as a sphere that allows manipulation of patterns (at the required rank) to not require an accompanying pattern sphere to effect said pattern. Since our group hasn't abused this it has never been a problem, though I see how it could.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tuch View Post

                  Is it common consensus to require Life to lock an Entropy 4 curse effect? We generaly don't require this since Entropy 4 is able to effect living patterns we except this as all that is required, even for locking the effect. Otherwise it's back to sphere bloat.

                  We see Entropy as a sphere that allows manipulation of patterns (at the required rank) to not require an accompanying pattern sphere to effect said pattern. Since our group hasn't abused this it has never been a problem, though I see how it could.
                  I see it the same way as you.

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                  • #10
                    The reason why Entropy does not need locking in is quite simple -
                    Everything that *does* need locking in is something physical and separate from the pattern you want to lock it into. A forcefield, a barrier, a raincloud that follows a pattern, etc. etc.

                    All those things can exist separately and in a location without being tied to a pattern.
                    Entropy does not. Entropy is change, and it always affects something, unable to exist in a void of its own. Requiring entropy to be locked in would make the sphere on its own absolutely useless.


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                    • #11
                      Interesting, how about the other ephemeral spheres?
                      Correspondence can exist in a void, so to speak.
                      And if Mind effects don't need locking, they get more useful.

                      I'm certainly not a friend of the new locking concept. But since it is RAW and ties nicely in the running effects rule I don't want to discard it outright. The problem I see with only the pattern spheres require locking is, that the other spheres never count as running effects, if they don't require “maintenance“ to do their jobs.


                      So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I pretty much run by the idea that the spheres function by themselves for their basic uses unless otherwise mentioned by the text. Correspondence says it need other spheres for certain specific effects: Correspondence 2 and an appropriate sphere at 2 to pull things through tiny holes in space or Correspondence 3 and other spheres at 3 to move things (other than themselves), and other similar instances for other effects. Otherwise, I see no reason to involve other spheres.

                        For instance, if I want to lock a mind sphere to a person, I really wouldn't lock it to that person's body. I'd lock it to that person's mind which falls under the purview of mind. A mind is a kind of pattern after all. If the mind somehow gets erased, then I suppose that spell would cease to function. Now if I wanted to lock it to an object, say to affect anyone wearing a certain helmet, then maybe I'd need matter.

                        With entropy, I'd lock it to that person's line of destiny or fate, which is some sort of pattern as well or it wouldn't be linked to the person.
                        Last edited by Spacecat; 04-09-2017, 04:44 AM.

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