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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    a man without any goverment experience won because of his "business savy" and plans to cut taxes on the wealthy. Truly out for blood.
    I know, right?

    The way I'm interpreting it in my canon is here's a guy who's spent his life aping the surface trappings of the Illuminati but they still won't allow him into their secret club. He can't understand why. He does all the incantations correctly (or close enough for him, he thinks "what difference can it make?"), but for some reason they don't work for him. He doesn't believe in their magick; they're faking. So he's faking, too, just like them.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lian View Post


      a man without any goverment experience won because of his "business savy" and plans to cut taxes on the wealthy. Truly out for blood.
      A man without government experience who nonetheless has played the game exactly as those who have it would have.

      He's also shot the TPP to pieces​ and at least spoken about killing NAFTA. And if those aren't syndicate projects, I don't know what is.

      His business savvy didn't get him into office, it was a drop in a bucket of politics as usual. Lies, propaganda, and speeches.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

        A man without government experience who nonetheless has played the game exactly as those who have it would have.

        He's also shot the TPP to pieces​ and at least spoken about killing NAFTA. And if those aren't syndicate projects, I don't know what is.

        His business savvy didn't get him into office, it was a drop in a bucket of politics as usual. Lies, propaganda, and speeches.


        Compared to gutting the EPA? For all the outrage on the streets governments are still bending over backwards to "protect the job creators" to lower taxes on the rich to remove regulations. All things that gave them control.

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        • #19
          What exactly were the Harbingers? I know they were a UK spin of the Technocracy but not much else.

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          • #20
            Ultimately, the levers of power which the Technocracy used to have their hands on are outside of their control for the time being. What now? This question is what I built my entire chronicle around.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by GogariGlenRoss View Post
              Ultimately, the levers of power which the Technocracy used to have their hands on are outside of their control for the time being. What now? This question is what I built my entire chronicle around.
              That presupposes a very very very powerful Technocracy that wants to exercise it's power in a, or a few. very specific ways.

              Neither of which has to be the case, or, in the context of the way the game presents the world after about 1st Ed, the way the game portrays the Union and what they do.

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              • #22
                Not that I think that the Union itself controls the government directly, but that powerful, influential people hold beliefs compatible with the Technocratic Paradigm, and therefore act in a way to reinforce it.

                Originally posted by Freederp92 View Post
                What exactly were the Harbingers? I know they were a UK spin of the Technocracy but not much else.
                In M20 the Harbingers of Avalon are an underground movement within the Technocracy who hold to Union's original, noble principles and are on the verge of splitting off like the Virtual Adepts or Sons of Ether, but to join with the Disparate Alliance instead of the Traditions.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post
                  A man without government experience who nonetheless has played the game exactly as those who have it would have.

                  He's also shot the TPP to pieces​ and at least spoken about killing NAFTA. And if those aren't syndicate projects, I don't know what is.

                  His business savvy didn't get him into office, it was a drop in a bucket of politics as usual. Lies, propaganda, and speeches.
                  I always thought the Syndicate's goal, and that of the Technocracy, was a one-world government. Tearing up multinational trade agreements and such very much go against their goal. I can't help but think that the Syndicate and the rest of Technocracy would have reacted with no small amount of horror at things like Brexit or the election of President Chester.

                  They are probably struggling, feeling like everything they've been working towards is falling apart, but they have no idea how to quickly regain control.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                    I always thought the Syndicate's goal, and that of the Technocracy, was a one-world government. Tearing up multinational trade agreements and such very much go against their goal. I can't help but think that the Syndicate and the rest of Technocracy would have reacted with no small amount of horror at things like Brexit or the election of President Chester.

                    They are probably struggling, feeling like everything they've been working towards is falling apart, but they have no idea how to quickly regain control.

                    OR the Syndicate could be throwing everyone under the bus, by ceding more and more power to the corporations and turning goverments into vestigial organs who only protect corporate interest is a direction towards unity. And one that happens to deftly put the other 4 conventions subservient to them.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post


                      OR the Syndicate could be throwing everyone under the bus, by ceding more and more power to the corporations and turning goverments into vestigial organs who only protect corporate interest is a direction towards unity. And one that happens to deftly put the other 4 conventions subservient to them.
                      One problem: governments aren't anywhere near vestigal. They still hold an order of magnitude more money and resources than any corporation, on average. And most corporations don't have access to nukes.

                      Given that Trump has been leading the US precariously close to nuclear war with North Korea, the Syndicate should be freaking the fuck out right now. Nuclear war is never good for business. Not if the war actually happens. No amount of cashing in on nuclear hysteria will make up for the catastrophe that would occur if the bombs actually started falling. Stocks plummet, trade halts, entire markets are obliterated in nuclear fire. That's before we even get to the long-term economic problems that result from fallout, possible nuclear winter, and potential collapse of civilization due to political and market upheaval.

                      The last thing the Syndicate wants is for Trump to hold the office of president (hostage). They, too, depend upon the carefully constructed global order. Putting that lunatic in charge of international diplomacy is a disaster for anyone who wants power and control.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                        I always thought the Syndicate's goal, and that of the Technocracy, was a one-world government. Tearing up multinational trade agreements and such very much go against their goal. I can't help but think that the Syndicate and the rest of Technocracy would have reacted with no small amount of horror at things like Brexit or the election of President Chester.

                        They are probably struggling, feeling like everything they've been working towards is falling apart, but they have no idea how to quickly regain control.
                        On the other hand, the Syndicate probably doesn't have issues with a world plutocracy as that one-world government. Even an aristocratic plutocracy. And that's not not a foreseeable end to current trends (insofar as it's not already in place) and definitely has a big part in what is going on politically right now. So they may not be happy with some aspects falling apart, but other aspects of the direction of the flow might be a-okay. Just because a government makes noises about doing away with free trade agreements, doesn't mean that has much to do what is actually going on, particularly with actual economics. For example, if a government says "none of these international trade agreement things" but is allowing major corporate interests to ship jobs abroad, in, well, job lots, then they are still all about globalism as far as economics go. They are also about selling that they are anti-globalism to keep their "customers" happy. Selling people on things, even things that they think are good for them and just plain aren't and even selling on them on one thing while actually giving them exactly the opposite, is also a Syndicate thing.

                        And, well... the NWO is just as responsible (which really means, "some, but not ENTIRELY", you can't get people to make a major ideological shift in a population without fertile ground for it...) for other times populism has reared its head. Socialism, fascism, democracy, etc ... they are all different social experiments designed to get to see if they can achieve the end game, that "One World" thing. In fact the intricate game of multi-dimensional chess probably requires setting those various ways of doing things against each other to "advance" the situation.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                          One problem: governments aren't anywhere near vestigal. They still hold an order of magnitude more money and resources than any corporation, on average. And most corporations don't have access to nukes.

                          Given that Trump has been leading the US precariously close to nuclear war with North Korea, the Syndicate should be freaking the fuck out right now. Nuclear war is never good for business. Not if the war actually happens. No amount of cashing in on nuclear hysteria will make up for the catastrophe that would occur if the bombs actually started falling. Stocks plummet, trade halts, entire markets are obliterated in nuclear fire. That's before we even get to the long-term economic problems that result from fallout, possible nuclear winter, and potential collapse of civilization due to political and market upheaval.

                          The last thing the Syndicate wants is for Trump to hold the office of president (hostage). They, too, depend upon the carefully constructed global order. Putting that lunatic in charge of international diplomacy is a disaster for anyone who wants power and control.

                          I am not saying the Syndicate's ideal was Trump(Well maybe SPecial Affairs Division), just that they aren't hurting particularly and the power of corporations in government is growing and it becomes a question of throwing the Technocracy under the bus for the Syndicate. Or "Wouldn't it be more efficient if we controlled everything? Those other conventions(especially the NWO) are wasting precious resources lets reoganize...


                          And if the Syndicate had signficant Nephandi/wyrm infiltration well..they wouldn't be hurting at all would they?

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                          • #28
                            Funny how these discussion always seem to track back to the Syndicate....

                            It seems like the Harbingers of Avalon are going to leave because they BELIEVE in the Union's mission as stated. They don't buy these "ends justify the means" arguments that have pushed almost it's entire weight right down the slippery slope. They are "The Technocrats in Rose-Colored Mirror Shades" that get mixed shrift in the Technocracy book. (They aren't presented entirely negatively, more as idealists who are riddled with naivete.... But, then again, being such a Technocrat is considered a Flaw.)

                            So, even though the "Syndicate is the home of Union badness" is a meme that started back in the day and has gained MUCH traction with the new Technephandi not-metaplot, I don't think it's the Syndicate's shenanigans that are necessarily going to end up being the breaking point for the Harbingers to leave. After all, a lot of the Syndicate's evil is proximate. Who is considered more evil, a serial killer who wipes out a family in their home is some gruesome fashion or a landlord who evicts just such a family into the street in the dead of winter for failure to pay their rent? Likewise, is an It-X program to turn unwilling or unwitting people into cyborgs (possibly/probably all the way to the no anesthetic assembly line method of doing so) going to be seen as evil as the Syndicate, oh, I dunno, playing "chicken with the world economy" with all the attendant consequences that resulted from that harming many, many more people.

                            Point being, pretty much all the Conventions have some pretty awful things going on and there is a lot of blind eye turning and/or explaining away as necessary evil. The N.W.O. is guilty of some really horrible things that compare with the Syndicate, I'm sure. And possibly are a little more direct in some of their less than pleasant interventions. The Progenitors and Iteration-X are doing absolutely inhumane and nasty things to people regularly.

                            The lacunae in all this is the Void Engineers, who, now, with Threat Null, are almost completely focused away from the Union and it's actions and are air-gapping themselves from the Union as a whole as well. And the ones who aren't up in space defending the world from bad badness are pretty much off doing their own thing in places where they aren't as much imperialist explorers as just explorers.

                            It might be interesting to see something where its the Void Engineers as a whole who leave the Union in tandem with the Harbingers. The Harbingers can try to keep up the support lines the VE's need to keep pursuing their objectives and allow the VE's to stop the wasted time and effort for this de-conditioning nonsense. Maybe THAT could be the precipitating event. The VE's in general and the Harbingers are on some of the same pages as is.
                            Last edited by Ajax; 04-23-2017, 07:04 PM.

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