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How could the Tremere manage to "win" the First Massasa War?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
    I have to remark about your analysis:
    -The number of Mages seem quite important in regard to the total population, what was the ratio supposed to be at that time? (number of Tremere is also high, but bloodsucking rabbit & stuff maybe?)
    Well, mage mentions numbers like 1 in a million or 1 in 50,000 to 25,000 but I always assumed those to be modern estimates and not exactly relevant to the dark ages. I was under the assumption that there were considerably more of them relative to the population back then, especially since Europe's population was around 62 million at the time.

    As for my Tremere numbers, the 5% was based on numbers of the rough ruling class to commoner ratio at the time and I'm assuming that to be the point where it becomes blatantly obvious that vampires run the country. At that point or higher, there would be no real way to hide the Tremere in Transylvania. The actual number should be less than this although that would also assume that the Tremere didn't spread outside Transylvania.

    Would you have any specific suggestions with regards to numbers?

    Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
    -You didn't mention Perdo Magica in the abilities of the Tremer which is odd because if I remember well they pretty much created it for this (and it got useless after)
    I didn't mention it because it seems to be completely absent in V20 Dark ages for some odd reason...
    The addition of it would make things more dangerous for the mages but wouldn't actually assure victory against Masters and Archmagi.

    10 dice of countermagic to cancel a power or ritual that targets anything within a radius equal to his Willpower in yards or meters, or one that is being used in that distance would only be available to a handful of vampires. While it could be used to shutdown archmagi or master, this would assume the vampire can actually get within that distance of an archmagi before he or she creates a glowing orb that emits sunlight or summons a natural disaster. So while it makes it possible for the vampires to win against powerful mages, it in no way assures victory against the crazy tricks that an ancient an paranoid mage would usually have. On the other hand, 6 dice of countermagic against magic that targets a vampire or something touching the vampire would certainly be a serious problem for most Order of Hermes student mages and newbies.

    It is my opinion that the initial attack against the Order of Hermes by the Tremere mostly killed the younger and less experienced mages of the order and much of their mortal compatriots (and maybe a few older ones here and there) but cost the Tremere dearly. It would have left a disorganized and greatly reduced Order of Hermes, however.



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    • #47
      Originally posted by Spacecat
      So you see no way of trying to give blood properties harmful to vampires can accidentally become harmful to people with a botch?
      If you botch, there's a Backlash. I guess a devious Storyteller could decide that the Backlash, instead of taking the usual forms, would take the form of turning the ritual harmful to others, but these things are mostly a ST fiat.

      Could you elaborate on these stupid strategies?
      They were discussed at the thread I mentioned-a good example it's the general idea that attacking vampiric fortresses when they're awake (at night) it's somehow a good idea.

      How obvious are Vampires?
      A lot. There's a reason why the Camarilla discourages the interaction with mortals. Frenzy alone it's a good reason to never enter in contact with huge (or powerful) groups of mortals that may consider killing you if you start hissing and popping fangs. Then you have the fact that mages know a lot and are very perceptive, you don't want to make a fuck-up near them.

      Also, why would they have to be perfectly hidden?
      Mortal Tremere were fighting against the Tzimisce in the beginning of the Omen War (by RAW), this solves the problem of how a group of neonates survived the Tzimisce, and thus I applaud that choice. However, it makes the need to hidde the vampires more important. I hate that the creators of vampire thought important to make clear how the Tremere survived against Elders, but didn't thought important to tell us how they didn't got discovered by mages (who, again, are very perceptive)

      Why couldn't the majority of Tremere have just been sold on becoming magickal immortal undead dudes to avoid the perceived loss of magick?
      .
      .
      .
      I would presume that the conversion of house Tremere went pretty well, with the majority becoming vampires of their own will
      This it's not very likely. You see, the anguish that mages feel when they loose their magick it's beyond the mere loss of "power". It's the loss of your Avatar, and with it, the extraordinary perception of Reality that Awakening gives Mages. It's like being both blind and castrated. The vague promise of the transcendence of Ascencion it's gone and now have a Beast pushing you to sub-humanity. It's said that suicide it's common among Gilguled, and so it's among mages turned vampire. This it's the drama of the vampire turned mage (can't recall where I read this, but I remember it from various Mage sources). It's a big drama, no Mage want's to be "Gilguled", some may be old and desperate enough to try it, like Tremere, but they should be a minority.

      early developments in Thaumaturgy bore enough fruit to seem promising (within 2 years supposedly)
      I still can't cope with the Thaumaturgy "the esoteric discipline by excelence", "the discipline that has to be teached because merely drinking the blood of a Tremere wouldn't be enough" was created in two years...I can totally believe that it would be much, much, faster to invent such a Discipline for Tremere, who was a rockstar at magick (a Master), and had a clan researching with him, than for joe, the average sorcerer. But heck, that was fast. Some books took much longer to write than that.

      About for your new scenary, it's better than the first approach, but:

      You need to account for the Tzimisce, and how much can they put on the table.

      It's important to note that the fact this was, as most wars between supernaturals, a Shadow War. The major advantage of vampires at a shadow war it's their skill to manipulate society, while the advantage that mages have in this regards it's their skill to gather knowledge (to fight a shadow war, misdirection it's the key) and pull off weird shenanigans (Thaumaturgy can also do the latter, albeit at a smaller pace than Magick)

      Plus, unless you're inventing a new war, it was the Hermetics who attacked (this had advantages and dissadvantages for the OoH. The advantage it's prep time (this it's why I find hard to buy that mages were entirely ignorant of vampires when they got there). The disadvantage it's that you don't get to fight in your super-warded castle Chantry, but have to fight against the walls and Wards of the Tremere.
      Idealy Hermetics would attack by day, so you mostly need to fight wards, ghouls (some of which could be mage, so it's not as simple as mages would like), and Tremere who waked up thanks to the common ritual that does that when someone get's close). By night Tremere would search for mages to kill them, and mages would need to set a camp either well hidden or with good supernatural protections (here it's where the tenuous aliance of the Order with Tzimisce could come in handy, as voivodes know the land and could provide shelter in towns that are within their domains, where the Tremere would have trouble trying to enter). Mages have a little advantage in the sleeping departament because they can use magick to function without sleep, but even then, running on magick alone for a long time may have side effects.

      It is my opinion that the initial attack against the Order of Hermes by the Tremere mostly killed the younger and less experienced mages of the order and much of their mortal compatriots (and maybe a few older ones here and there) but cost the Tremere dearly. It would have left a disorganized and greatly reduced Order of Hermes, however.
      I can see why the war would be more difficult for young members of both groups (mainly because youngsters are the more likely to actualy "be" in the conflict)
      However, instead of trying to justify the number given in OoH Trad. Book (that was IOC info that could have been given to discourage young mages, as someone stated earlier), it may be better to think that the Order withdraw before loosing a critical number (let's say, before loosing a 50%). The Tremere were trully in no position to surrender in any war, as they were besieged by their enemies, but the OoH could retreat (knowing that the Tremere wouldn't pursue).


      EDIT: On the Tremere beneffit, I would say that (at least at the beginning) probably most Gangrel, Nosferatu and Tzimisce can't tell the difference between an uppity group of usurper mages in robes and the mages in robes that want to kill the usurper mages. Meanwhile Hermetics probably would think (again, at the beginning) that all vampires are Tremere creations just like the Gargoyles
      Last edited by Aleph; 04-21-2017, 02:22 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Spacecat
        I would put the mage capabilities as something like this:

        Head of House: One of: Transform Vampires into inanimate objects; Transform Vampires into mindless corpse; Kill opposing forces with natural disaster; plus everything their lessers can do
        Masters: One of: Transform Vampires into Mundane Animal; Transform Vampires into lackey; Create Real Sunlight; plus everything their lessers can do
        Students: One of: Heal injuries; Confuse Vampires; Counter Thaumaturgy; Fight using elemental superpowers; plus everything their lessers can do
        Newbies: Enhance their mundane fighting capabilities & use Supernatural Senses

        This is obviously quite generalized but based on my reading of the Dark ages powers.


        Tremere Vampires of the highest levels would likely be able to: Astral Project, Possess a Mortal Creature,
        and one of: Attack using a Blazing Inferno; Telekinetically Toss 1000 lbs; Summon a powerful elemental; Instill Self Loathing
        Plus whatever their lessers can do.

        Their Students are liable to be able to: Read Minds, Reshape Memories, Lob bolts of fire, Animate an object, Sow Dissent, Induce Malady,
        plus a smattering of lesser abilities including fast travel & inhuman senses and all the standard vampire powers.
        This method...isn't very convincing. The thing with mages it's that they're Dynamic, giving them a few preffered techniques (one of which it's a long standing joke) isn't a good way to represent them. It does a discervice to Thaumaturgical rituals too.

        As a more holistic approach, if you want to persist, could be to rethink the strategies after a few "turns" of the war (probably a "turn" could be three months or so). Mages get to "adapt" (rethink the strategy to something that would better counter the other party) two or three times per each time vampire does to represent their great "dynamicity"

        While you want to be purist in V20 DA, I would suggest to add the Path Countermagic after a turn or two (It isn't in V20 DA, but it exists in V20, and this particular conflict it's the best moment to develop and teach such a rare Path).

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Spacecat View Post

          Would you have any specific suggestions with regards to numbers?
          The number you had would be about 0.5%, I think 1 per 1000 would be more accurate, so that'd be around 500?

          As for the Tremere, I'd say at best twice as much (not counting Gargoyles) as they were specific of whom they embracebut selected quite a few apprentices rejected by the Order from what I've read

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            it's the general idea that attacking vampiric fortresses when they're awake (at night) it's somehow a good idea.
            That does sound stupid. Sorry, could you tell me where that's from?

            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            A lot. There's a reason why the Camarilla discourages the interaction with mortals. Frenzy alone it's a good reason to never enter in contact with huge (or powerful) groups of mortals that may consider killing you if you start hissing and popping fangs. Then you have the fact that mages know a lot and are very perceptive, you don't want to make a fuck-up near them.
            With regards to perceptive, I've found that mages are pretty good at finding stuff they are looking for and only somewhat better than mortals at finding stuff they aren't looking for. So if mage "X" is looking for the secrets of the heavens and the vampires are running around in another country at night, how would the mage "X" actually find them?


            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            This it's not very likely. You see, the anguish that mages feel when they loose their magick it's beyond the mere loss of "power". It's the loss of your Avatar, and with it, the extraordinary perception of Reality that Awakening gives Mages. It's like being both blind and castrated. The vague promise of the transcendence of Ascencion it's gone and now have a Beast pushing you to sub-humanity. It's said that suicide it's common among Gilguled, and so it's among mages turned vampire. This it's the drama of the vampire turned mage (can't recall where I read this, but I remember it from various Mage sources). It's a big drama, no Mage want's to be "Gilguled", some may be old and desperate enough to try it, like Tremere, but they should be a minority.
            It would be nice to get a source for this. Even so, they don't feel this before it happens and the Vampire Tremere, perhaps wanting others to accompany them in their misery could probably easily discount pain as "the pain of death" and make excuses for suddenly missing Tremere who committed suicide. The elders could also wipe such things from memory.


            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            I still can't cope with the Thaumaturgy "the esoteric discipline by excelence", "the discipline that has to be teached because merely drinking the blood of a Tremere wouldn't be enough" was created in two years...I can totally believe that it would be much, much, faster to invent such a Discipline for Tremere, who was a rockstar at magick (a Master), and had a clan researching with him, than for joe, the average sorcerer. But heck, that was fast. Some books took much longer to write than that.
            I'd say two years is a long time if the base material already exists. I'm guessing the 1st thing they'd try is finding something within them that is like an avatar within them. Likely, all they'd find is the beast. Then they'd try their numerous techniques for applying enlightened will to it. This probably wouldn't do much. Then you'd apply all manner of techniques for applying gnostic techniques, treating the beast as their divine spark. If that didn't work they'd then try a perverse from of Theurgy, treating the beast as a separate spiritual entity. Failing thus, they'd then try to find another source of supernatural power withing themselves and then try applying the same enlightened, gnostic, and theurgical techniques. They'd probably try it using the blood, the humors, the heart, and then other esoteric things. Once they found the source of power they could mess with, they'd actually have most of the rest of the instructions as part of their gnostic heritage hedge magic heritage, with a few substitutions necessary her and there. The reason merely drinking the blood of a Tremere won't give you Thaumaturgy is because you have to learn it in the manner of learning from a tutor or a book. It's counter-intuitive... like higher math or like physics.

            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            You need to account for the Tzimisce, and how much can they put on the table.
            Actually, I was planing to try and fit them in later, after the Tremere and Order were more or less solid, so we can see if the whole model sinks or swims.


            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            It's important to note that the fact this was, as most wars between supernaturals, a Shadow War. The major advantage of vampires at a shadow war it's their skill to manipulate society, while the advantage that mages have in this regards it's their skill to gather knowledge (to fight a shadow war, misdirection it's the key) and pull off weird shenanigans (Thaumaturgy can also do the latter, albeit at a smaller pace than Magick)
            Would you suggest then more specifically how the Hermetics would have handled things? Without outside input, my ideas will be quite narrow.



            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            Plus, unless you're inventing a new war, it was the Hermetics who attacked (this had advantages and dissadvantages for the OoH. The advantage it's prep time (this it's why I find hard to buy that mages were entirely ignorant of vampires when they got there). The disadvantage it's that you don't get to fight in your super-warded castle Chantry, but have to fight against the walls and Wards of the Tremere.
            Please note, my model only encompasses stage 1 of the war and not even completely at that. Admittedly my comments about the strongest 100 mages are not actual to the complete model of the war and only suggested by a total bashfest between the 2 groups.

            So with regards to attack, the reason I'm going under the assumption the Tremere attacked first is because the Tremere were the ones expecting this war.
            So the mages found out, gathered in force, and struck at the Tremere Castle... and the Tremere knew 100 years ago that this would happen. What would they do. What would you do?
            I'd leave some guys there to stall the mages (hoping they didn't decide to just nuke the place) while I went off to destroy your now less protected holdings. I would try to make the castle as much of a death trap to as many mages and mage resources as possible but I would not use it as my base. That would be some magically hidden hiding hole somewhere else. Then while they're busy with that, I'd go for whatever they left behind and set forth those dragons the books mention.



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            • #51
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

              This method...isn't very convincing. The thing with mages it's that they're Dynamic, giving them a few preffered techniques (one of which it's a long standing joke) isn't a good way to represent them. It does a discervice to Thaumaturgical rituals too.
              These are broad generalizations. I eventually actually plan to run and roll combat and less direct battles between mages and vampires as part of trying to figure this out, using specific rotes and thaumaturgical applications. I'm trying to establish a rough idea of numbers first.

              If you have any applications of thaumaturgy or awakened magic you think I'm overlooking, please point them out and I'll see how to add them.

              My comment about how the battle might go before we even started is just made because a mage with Vires 4+ who knows anything about vampires will probably start making flying glowy orbs of true sunlight at a great distance and be done with the vampires fairly quick. What i haven't found is a way for the younger mages to deal with larger numbers of supernatural opponents. Throw in Countermagic to the mix and you really have a scenario where the younger mages are at a terrible disadvantage while the older ones are still nearly unbeatable unless taken by surprise.


              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              As a more holistic approach, if you want to persist, could be to rethink the strategies after a few "turns" of the war (probably a "turn" could be three months or so). Mages get to "adapt" (rethink the strategy to something that would better counter the other party) two or three times per each time vampire does to represent their great "dynamicity"
              This sounds good. I'm still ironing out turn 1 though. I have no idea how long turns will last but I suspect when the next turn happens will have a lot to do with how the each turn ends.

              So far, turn I guess I'll set turn 1 as mages go and assault the Tremere castle, while the Tremere try to assault the Order strongholds.


              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              While you want to be purist in V20 DA, I would suggest to add the Path Countermagic after a turn or two (It isn't in V20 DA, but it exists in V20, and this particular conflict it's the best moment to develop and teach such a rare Path).
              Okay. I will do this.
              Last edited by Spacecat; 04-21-2017, 05:59 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Kendaan View Post

                The number you had would be about 0.5%, I think 1 per 1000 would be more accurate, so that'd be around 500?

                As for the Tremere, I'd say at best twice as much (not counting Gargoyles) as they were specific of whom they embracebut selected quite a few apprentices rejected by the Order from what I've read
                Sorry, you lost me. 500 what? (Did I screw up my math somewhere?)

                How many Tremere, Gargoyles, & Hermetics?


                Edit: I'm currently designing mages of varying levels of power and capability and vampires and gargoyles and such... and reading up on their capabilities. This may take a while. Th numbers on each side though will have great bearing on the tactics they can use.
                Last edited by Spacecat; 04-22-2017, 03:52 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Spacecat
                  That does sound stupid. Sorry, could you tell me where that's from?
                  Blood Treachery.

                  As mark puts it in the old Thread that theorizes about just the kind of stuff you're thinking right now:

                  Originally posted by mark, in that old thread
                  5. "ok here's our battle plan we charge in the middle of the night with guns through the front door. no research no plan no preparation no backup no umbrood summon . and absolutely no magick! because obviously 3 points of paradox are worse than being killed!...even if magic is coincidental in their chantries.
                  (you should read the whole rant, it's rather funny)

                  Originally posted by mark, in that old thread
                  then again even this book makes more sense than the first masassa war. with the tremere hiding vampirism for 177 years and surviving agains tzimisce gangrel warrior salubri and hermetics all the while they are in their infancy. i mean seriously the entire thing should have ended in a month or so. the order literally outdotted them.
                  Latter the thread goes on discussing if that it's true or not (albeit a lot it's about modern days). This is why I think it's relevant to link it here.

                  With regards to perceptive, I've found that mages are pretty good at finding stuff they are looking for and only somewhat better than mortals at finding stuff they aren't looking for. So if mage "X" is looking for the secrets of the heavens and the vampires are running around in another country at night, how would the mage "X" actually find them?
                  • While searching for Tzimisce and other vampires in or near the Chantry
                  • Mages in the chantry B had the great idea of putting a ward against vampires (a stationary effect that detects undead resonance and lack of life should be doable with Vires Primus and Anima), then a vampiric Tremere from chantry A (which had been ashed by Tzimisce) enters running asking for asylum.
                  • Mortal Tremere with Awareness 5 that has been fighting vampires for some time cassualy gets near a vampire Tremere and get's the "vampiric vive".She decides to investigate.
                  • Trembley the vampiric Tremere takes a strol to find something to drink, and just then he passes by Dufus the Clumsy, which accidentally drops a torch to the foot of Trembley. Then nature takes it's course and either Dufus it's bruttaly murdered or manages to beat Trembley and now he has reasons to be suspicious.
                  • A Tremere, hating his unlife more than the usual, decides to tell the tale regardless of the fact he's going to be killed by the Order.
                  • A vampire hunter of the Inquisition finds himself pursuing a massa that it's protected by of a group of heathen sorcerers. He manages to get in by day, but it's captured and interrogated. Obviously his affirmations are those of a madman, but then, vampiric have started to show more and more within our chantries...so it's worth to search.
                  • Same as above, but with Tzimisce. Man, why everyone insists that our ranks are filled with undead?.
                  • Rivals of the Old Faith/Messianic Voices discover the rouse while attacking Tremere, then orchestrate a way to reveal the data to the Order, after all, an enemy that fights with himself it's weakening itself
                  • Ned the Tremere neonate tries to feed on a woman but it's careless and doesn't realize that he's been spied by Judas, the Treacheros Tytalus, that was spying tremere to get brive material, who proceeds to read his mind to discover that this wasn't just a perverted mage, but a member of a widespread conspiracy
                  • Same than the above, but this time the Tytalan send a spirit to get information of his enemies within the rival House. He surely get his info, just it's scarier than he expected.
                  • Should I continue?
                  My point there it's not to proove that it's impossible for the Tremere to have been hidden for 100 years to the Order as a whole (I know that all of the above can be averted), but to highlight that, in all those years, it's unrealisticto think NOTHING got wrong. NO Tremere fell to the Beast in a bad moment, no spy was sucessful, no one of those mages that were fighting in the beginings of the Omen War was savvy enough to search for vampires in their midst.
                  I'm more willing to believe that the "masquerade had his accidents". A group of the Tremere did know, but decided not to tell, thinking that the corruption wouldn't be so big as to reach Ceoris, while others knew, but hadn't enough proof to call a tribunal, or didn't wanted to get caught in the middle of a war(and thus decided to lay low and avoid capture). I think that at least a chapter about this in some book would be appreciated. Otherwise mages seem just sitting ducks

                  It would be nice to get a source for this. Even so, they don't feel this before it happens and the Vampire Tremere, perhaps wanting others to accompany them in their misery could probably easily discount pain as "the pain of death" and make excuses for suddenly missing Tremere who committed suicide. The elders could also wipe such things from memory.
                  Any Tremere old enough to consent being killed to become immortal should be savvy (and, likely, powerful) enough to at least research what would happen.

                  I'm guessing the 1st thing they'd try is finding something within them that is like an avatar within them. Likely, all they'd find is the beast. Then they'd try their numerous techniques for applying enlightened will to it. This probably wouldn't do much. Then you'd apply all manner of techniques for applying gnostic techniques, treating the beast as their divine spark. If that didn't work they'd then try a perverse from of Theurgy, treating the beast as a separate spiritual entity. Failing thus, they'd then try to find another source of supernatural power withing themselves and then try applying the same enlightened, gnostic, and theurgical techniques. They'd probably try it using the blood, the humors, the heart, and then other esoteric things. Once they found the source of power they could mess with, they'd actually have most of the rest of the instructions as part of their gnostic heritage hedge magic heritage, with a few substitutions necessary her and there.
                  And doing all of that it's literally a lot easier than solving fermat's last theorem?, writing 1 Game of Thrones book takes more than developing the first Thaumaturgical grimoire?. Inventing Thaumaturgy itself it's easier than getting a phd?. Then how long takes to create a Path?, one month?

                  So with regards to attack, the reason I'm going under the assumption the Tremere attacked first is because the Tremere were the ones expecting this war.
                  So the mages found out, gathered in force, and struck at the Tremere Castle... and the Tremere knew 100 years ago that this would happen. What would they do. What would you do?
                  I'd leave some guys there to stall the mages (hoping they didn't decide to just nuke the place) while I went off to destroy your now less protected holdings. I would try to make the castle as much of a death trap to as many mages and mage resources as possible but I would not use it as my base. That would be some magically hidden hiding hole somewhere else. Then while they're busy with that, I'd go for whatever they left behind and set forth those dragons the books mention.
                  You should get into the setting. This wasn't two castles in nearby mountains. The Order of Hermes was spread trough Europe. Meanwhile, the Tremere had become more insular. The Tremere were besieged by the Tzimisce, Gangrel, Nosferatu, and remaining Salubri.

                  In order to do what you imagine, the Tremere should have moved armies of blood sucking undead trough Europe. This it's a logistical nightmare, how are you going to provide the blood for the whole army and at the same time not attract the attention?, how are you going to move arround massive numbers of vampires trough the Domain of the undead Princes without making all the vampires in the world declare war at you?, how are you going to do all that unnoticed by other supernatural forces that hunt vampires?.

                  Mages are easier to move arround, because they are less, they can travel during day like everyone else, and drink and eat like everyone else. Even then, it's unrealistic to say that an army of mages and mortals got to Transilvania unnoticed, but the problems maximize a thousandfold when you move arround vampires.

                  Plus, if the Tremere were to abandon their post, the vampires that were besieging them for a century would know and attack them in the back (that's what vampires do best).

                  If this was a "three sided war campaign", you can bet that some Gangrel and Nosferatu players would do all in their power to harass the Tremere army, while the Tzimisce Koldun player prepares his Ghouls for a hostile takeover. Meanwhile, the Mage players are likely getting loaded with rituals, and wont enter the Chantry without scanning for magical traps to counterspell (that's the only realistic approach if you enter in the palace of a mage).

                  Meanwhile the Tremere, that now owes two thousand favors to all the Princes of the cities he had to stop by to get blood for two hundred monsters, needs to use his (probably weakened) army to battle against old Masters in their own warded Chantry protected by forcefields, dragons, and whatnot. Even if the Tremere win, the Masters are likely to be able to escape, and then the Tremere wouldn't be able to go back to their own place. Good luck establishing your new home before the Masters decide to take it back or nuke it.

                  What i haven't found is a way for the younger mages to deal with larger numbers of supernatural opponents.
                  Mages can share their magick. When fighting against large numbers, you use magick on your surroundings or to empower humans (that are likely to be more numerous than the enemy). Order of Hermes would never lend a potent Artifact to a mortal, but to a young mage?, sure. Acolites are Hermetic too (1rst rank, mortal hermetics but hermetics nevertheless), and thus they can be trusted with a little magick. And nobody bans to use temporal enhacements even on mercenary troops.

                  Probably Masters aren't going to get into the fray, instead sending his apprentices with powerful Artifacts and enhancing them with spells. Primus makes artifact creation easier than normal for Hermetics, thus, a "sunlight orb" or a "volcanoe potion" could be detonated by any young apprentice in the correct place. Golems and powerfulk elementals can be summoned to assist younger mages. Masters of Corona can walk the minds of their students and cast spells from that connection. With just the mental images received by Corona 3, a Master could already start a long range ritual against an enemy base, as per the range rules

                  Young mages may have between 1 and 3 on one Pillar. Unlike Ascencion, in DA a mage can have more points on a Pillar than their Foundation, but there's a penalty as you need to spend Quintessence to cast a spell greater than your "Arete". However, this does amplify what a starting mage could be expected to do.
                  Merely enhancing the weapons of all the human soldiers with Aggravated damage (Primus 2) it's something that Apprentices can do, a group of archers with enchanted arrows can be quite deadly against vampires (bonus points if you set them on fire, just for the rotschreck). A warrior with enhanced weaponry and armor it's rival to any ghoul. They can then concentrate on countering spells and disciplines. Apprentices can control the emotions of both enemies and alies, making them great leaders as they can control the flow of battle. Others can heal, improve the bodies of their comerades, and use the nature against their enemies (you could take some cues of the Life thread for these Disciples). And, finally, Vires Disciples can redirect any energy or cinetical attack used against the platoon (a wind gust to repel lances and arows?), use ilusions (that can be countered by Auspex but only the Tremere themselves have that advantage), communicate orders trough the battlefield without anyone noticing, blast down walls and doors, start fires that make the undead check for rotschreck, and do great damage to key enemies.

                  I'm currently designing mages of varying levels of power and capability and vampires and gargoyles and such... and reading up on their capabilities. This may take a while. Th numbers on each side though will have great bearing on the tactics they can use.
                  Don't neglect DA: Grimoire...DA magick system makes no sense without reading that (and even then it's hard to understand the reasoning).
                  Last edited by Aleph; 04-23-2017, 04:09 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Blood Treachery.

                    As mark puts it in the old Thread that theorizes about just the kind of stuff you're thinking right now:

                    (you should read the whole rant, it's rather funny)
                    Sounds like a plan.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    My point there it's not to proove that it's impossible for the Tremere to have been hidden for 100 years to the Order as a whole (I know that all of the above can be averted), but to highlight that, in all those years, it's unrealisticto think NOTHING got wrong. NO Tremere fell to the Beast in a bad moment, no spy was sucessful, no one of those mages that were fighting in the beginings of the Omen War was savvy enough to search for vampires in their midst.
                    I'm more willing to believe that the "masquerade had his accidents". A group of the Tremere did know, but decided not to tell, thinking that the corruption wouldn't be so big as to reach Ceoris, while others knew, but hadn't enough proof to call a tribunal, or didn't wanted to get caught in the middle of a war(and thus decided to lay low and avoid capture). I think that at least a chapter about this in some book would be appreciated. Otherwise mages seem just sitting ducks
                    Well, my understanding of the Order knowing or not knowing about the Vampires was of the Order as a whole recognizing that Tremeres were becoming a Vampire group. So when I read that the house Tremere kept it hidden for 100+ years I don't read it as nothing ever went wrong. Just that not enough went wrong enough to alert anyone of enough not in the Order of Hermes to bring it to the attention of the Order as a whole. Maybe some people suspected such, but couldn't really convince others to check because they sounded like some weird entrapment scheme to catch people spying on fellow members of the Order. Maybe a Tremere Vampire showed up at the doorstep of a chantry and the guy who went to the Tremere to double check got brainwashed and the Vampire informant subsequently executed. Maybe people of the Order thought the Tremere had a weird vampire problem, not knowing how bad it was, and were waiting for the Tremere elders to ask for help, which they other Houses planned to give in exchange for favors. I don't recall the book saying absolutely no person in the Order knew or suspected anything, just that the Order (I take it as the order as a whole) found out too late.

                    I know no one devoted a chapter or such to it and I suppose I see what you mean, but I personally don't take that as things having happened a certain way so much as the writers dumping the job of filling in the blanks on the Storyteller... which isn't all that great either but not quite the same thing.

                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Any Tremere old enough to consent being killed to become immortal should be savvy (and, likely, powerful) enough to at least research what would happen.
                    How would you research what would happen to a powerful mage who drinks the vampire formula?
                    Also, what would you research from if the powerful mage who turned into a vampire made a book about what happens when a powerful mage turns into a Vampire?

                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    And doing all of that it's literally a lot easier than solving fermat's last theorem?, writing 1 Game of Thrones book takes more than developing the first Thaumaturgical grimoire?. Inventing Thaumaturgy itself it's easier than getting a phd?. Then how long takes to create a Path?, one month?
                    I don't think you quite got my argument.

                    It's more like the mathematical equations being already developed but missing a few crucial variables now that you are substituting Awakened Avatar or your Gnosis (Hermetic concept of Gnosis) empowered will for whatever the heck vampires draw their power from. Once you find the values of that variable or maybe other relevant variables, you don't have to reinvent the physics or the math, just recompute for everything and make your new tables and charts for the less brilliant students. Now someone without these tables and equations and notes would have to rediscover calculus and physics from scratch.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    You should get into the setting. This wasn't two castles in nearby mountains. The Order of Hermes was spread trough Europe. Meanwhile, the Tremere had become more insular. The Tremere were besieged by the Tzimisce, Gangrel, Nosferatu, and remaining Salubri.
                    Actually, this occurred to me last time and is slowing down my presuppositions as I have this huge map now and am calculating traveling distances with that Blood magic used for increased travel speed for units. Also figuring out the needed populations to sustain these. Likely though, when they went to other places, they didn't really care about sustainable populations so much as immediate need, except in certain areas.

                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    In order to do what you imagine, the Tremere should have moved armies of blood sucking undead trough Europe. This it's a logistical nightmare, how are you going to provide the blood for the whole army and at the same time not attract the attention?, how are you going to move arround massive numbers of vampires trough the Domain of the undead Princes without making all the vampires in the world declare war at you?, how are you going to do all that unnoticed by other supernatural forces that hunt vampires?.
                    A logistical nightmare indeed. I'm doing the computing.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Plus, if the Tremere were to abandon their post, the vampires that were besieging them for a century would know and attack them in the back (that's what vampires do best).
                    Again, I'd rather do this step by step with an accurate step 1 first, with yours and everyone's inputs.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    If this was a "three sided war campaign", you can bet that some Gangrel and Nosferatu players would do all in their power to harass the Tremere army, while the Tzimisce Koldun player prepares his Ghouls for a hostile takeover. Meanwhile, the Mage players are likely getting loaded with rituals, and wont enter the Chantry without scanning for magical traps to counterspell (that's the only realistic approach if you enter in the palace of a mage).
                    Don't worry, the I'm taking that into account too... eventually.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Meanwhile the Tremere, that now owes two thousand favors to all the Princes of the cities he had to stop by to get blood for two hundred monsters, needs to use his (probably weakened) army to battle against old Masters in their own warded Chantry protected by forcefields, dragons, and whatnot. Even if the Tremere win, the Masters are likely to be able to escape, and then the Tremere wouldn't be able to go back to their own place. Good luck establishing your new home before the Masters decide to take it back or nuke it.
                    I'm pretty sure the Tremere tried something other than talking to princes and owing them favors. I'll get to that. As for the latter thing... that's likely what happened. The whole thing probably devolved into a bizarre hide and seek all over Europe... but again, we'll have to get to that.


                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Mages can share their magick. .... Don't neglect DA: Grimoire...DA magick system makes no sense without reading that (and even then it's hard to understand the reasoning).
                    Thus i haven't quite made my next post that I intended to yet. I'm working on Mage Stats, Vampire Stats, Use of powers. Movement logistics. Stuff.


                    Say, can someone maybe clarify the Vampire and Gargoyle and Mage numbers mentioned by Kendaan?
                    Last edited by Spacecat; 04-24-2017, 01:47 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Well, looking foward to it.

                      Originally posted by Spacecat
                      Say, can someone maybe clarify the Vampire and Gargoyle and Mage numbers mentioned by Kendaan?
                      While I can't, we have the official numbers of the OoH at the time from Ars Magica, provided by Posthumanity (1230 - 92 Tremere = 1138 mages. A few more or less). Why don't use these and work upwards for vampires with a highball of 10 vampires per mage to a lowball of 3 vampires per mage (1: 1000000 mages vs 1:100000 vampires / 1: 150000 mages vs 1: 50000 vampires). Even when these censuses can't be trusted and are of the modern days I think it's rational to have a difference between mages and vampires that more or less refflect these numbers because while embrace was a bit more common back then, so were awakenings in a world that was more filled with magick. Also, the Tremere were notoriously few compared with other vampiric clans, they werent allowed to embrace a lot outside of Transilvania, and inside Transilvania the Tzimisce hold most of the Domains during the first century of the Omen War, and quite a lot after that 1rst century. Meanwhile, the OoH was the largest group of mages, so I would suggest the lowball, that seems to be the ratio you choosed (this it's the rationale I would use to justify that ratio).

                      It seems that the Tremere (very cautiously) organized a "diaspora" of sorts, making Chantries outside Transilvania. These Chantries are not to fight in the war, but to survive in case they loose. Their success it's limmited by the fact that nobody likes Tremere, and Princes get sure to limmit the number of embraces they make. They're very small. Merlilinda's own chantry in Britain it's described as "cramped", and that they don't have prisons or anything of the like, just rooms and labs. They won't fight, but could be used to ease the travel by preparing blood beforehand for the troops that need it.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Anyway, just to get this down, that's 92 Tremere vs 1138 mages of the rest of the Order

                        With regards to the mages, these would be mages of the 10 remaining founding houses with very roughly 114 per house with very roughly 1 Arch-mage, 4 Masters, 20 Disciples, & 89 Initiates
                        In a hundred years, each house would have 1 Arch-mage, 8 Masters, 40 Disciples, & 178 Initiates for a total of 227 per house, and a total of 2270 mages. Each House would probably be supported by people around 4540 people, which would be probably 1 relatively big town (the towns of the era usually having 2500 people but ranging from 1000 to 8000 people).

                        Tremere's 92 would be divided into Tremere, The books suggest that the tremere ranks would be something like 1 Tremere, 7 Masters, 49 Disciples, and 35 Initiates to start with. Assuming a Transylvanian population of 520,896 we would have a maximum of 26044 Vampires before things become unsustainable. I'm guessing Tremere probably rocked the boat of the Vampire population with one third of that, or 8681 vampires in Transylvania, Including Gargoyles. This would give us possibly something like 1 Tremere, 7 Pseudo Elders, 49 Pseudo Ancillae, 343 Neonates, 2401 Fledgelings for a total of 2801 Tremere Vampires. If you want to incorporate some minority of mages, it'll probably be something like 1 Master, 7 Disciples, and 14 Initiates.

                        Whatever the case, you'd also have 5880 Gargoyles.

                        I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate the numbers of the other clans and figure out their numbers as well. Doing a bit of research, it seems the Elder Tzimisce were slow to act and tended to throw their progeny (including revenants) at problems until these were solved. They were also limited in what they could do by the machinations of the Ventrue. The Gangrel, were probably considerably more determined foes and were helped along by the Nosferatu.

                        There is mention of a 1 to 1000 average ratio for vampires, and a strong suggestion that the Tzimisce went above this number. I'm ignoring this value with regards to the Tremere because this is supposedly the time they weren't acting like Vampires.


                        On other notes, I'm assuming the first Step in the War involves a group of mages and whatever forces could be mustered by the nearby houses marching to conquer the Tremere lands and the Tremere attempting to wipe them out. I'm Still studying Vampires. For now, I think this will be a mostly Order Vs. Tremere affair, with the Gangrel jumping in if they can capitalize on the situation.
                        Last edited by Spacecat; 04-24-2017, 08:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          There is mention of a 1 to 1000 average ratio for vampires. . I'm ignoring this value
                          If we go by these numbers we would have 521+ vampires for Transylvania :P (little more if you "take" from nearby countries).
                          I think that your numbers are more like it, maybe a bit on the big side, but not bad.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Current Update [Edit: retroactive terminology change, also added a dot to "Master" pillars]

                            I've been designing the mages who will take part in the conflict.
                            They're looking something like this for Order of Hermes

                            Archmage (of Forces) [Remove]
                            Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5,
                            Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 5

                            Awareness 5, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 3, Subterfuge 3
                            Archery 4, Crafts 4, Melee 4, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Enigmas 3, Investigation 4, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 10
                            Forma 5, Anima 4, Corona 4, Primus 5, Vires 5
                            Chantry 1, Fount 5, Library 5, Resources 4, Sanctum 4, Servant 3, Talisman 5


                            Archmage (of Life) [Master of Life]
                            Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5,
                            Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 5

                            Awareness 5, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 3, Subterfuge 3
                            Archery 4, Crafts 4, Melee 4, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Enigmas 3, Investigation 4, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 10
                            Forma 5, Anima 5, Corona 4, Primus 4, Vires 5
                            Chantry 1, Fount 5, Library 5, Resources 4, Sanctum 4, Servant 3, Talisman 5


                            Archmage (of Magic) [Master of Magic]
                            Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5,
                            Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 5

                            Awareness 5, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 3, Subterfuge 3
                            Archery 4, Crafts 4, Melee 4, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Enigmas 3, Investigation 4, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 10
                            Forma 5, Anima 4, Corona 4, Primus 5, Vires 5
                            Chantry 1, Fount 5, Library 5, Resources 4, Sanctum 4, Servant 3, Talisman 5


                            Archmage (of the Mind) [Master of Mind]
                            Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5,
                            Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 5

                            Awareness 5, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 3, Subterfuge 3
                            Archery 4, Crafts 4, Melee 4, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Enigmas 3, Investigation 4, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 10
                            Forma 5, Anima 4, Corona 5, Primus 4, Vires 5
                            Chantry 1, Fount 5, Library 5, Resources 4, Sanctum 4, Servant 3, Talisman 5


                            Master (Life Mage) [Adept]
                            Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 4,
                            Charisma 4, Manipulation 4, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 3, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 8
                            Forma 4, Anima 4, Primus 3, Vires 4
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 3, Resources 3, Sanctum 3, Servant 1, Talisman 3


                            Master (Mind Mage) [Adept]
                            Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 4,
                            Charisma 4, Manipulation 4, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 3, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 8
                            Forma 4, Corona 4, Primus 3, Vires 4
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 3, Resources 3, Sanctum 3, Servant 1, Talisman 3


                            Master (Item Mage) [Adept]
                            Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 4,
                            Charisma 4, Manipulation 4, Appearance 2
                            Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 3, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                            Willpower 8
                            Forma 4, Anima 3, Primus 4, Vires 4
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 3, Resources 3, Sanctum 3, Servant 1, Talisman 3

                            Disciple (Healer)
                            Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3,
                            Charisma 3, Manipulation 3, Appearance 2
                            Perception 4, Intelligence 4, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 5
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 5, Politics 2

                            Willpower 6
                            Forma 3, Anima 3, Primus 1, Vires 3
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 2, Resources 2, Sanctum 2, Servant 1, Talisman 1


                            Disciple (Mentalist)
                            Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3,
                            Charisma 3, Manipulation 3, Appearance 2
                            Perception 4, Intelligence 4, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 5
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 5, Politics 2

                            Willpower 6
                            Forma 3, Corona 3, Primus 1, Vires 3
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 2, Resources 2, Sanctum 2, Servant 1, Talisman 1


                            Disciple (Magical Duelist)
                            Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3,
                            Charisma 3, Manipulation 3, Appearance 2
                            Perception 4, Intelligence 4, Wits 4

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Subterfuge 2
                            Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 5
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 5, Politics 2

                            Willpower 6
                            Forma 3, Corona 1, Primus 3, Vires 3
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 2, Resources 2, Sanctum 2, Servant 1, Talisman 1


                            Initiate
                            Strength 2, Dexterity 4, Stamina 2,
                            Charisma 2, Manipulation 2, Appearance 2
                            Perception 3, Intelligence 4, Wits 3

                            Awareness 3, Dodge 2,
                            Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 3
                            Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 3

                            Willpower 5
                            Forma 3, Primus 1, Vires 3
                            Chantry 1, Fount 3, Library 1, Resources 1, Sanctum 1
                            Last edited by Spacecat; 04-27-2017, 12:41 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              The Vampires are looking something like this
                              (I'm very open to suggestions from the Vampire folks here and yes, I wont incorporate countermagic in the initial fray unless a proper argument for it comes up)

                              Tremere
                              Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5,
                              Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Appearance 2
                              Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 5

                              Awareness 5, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 3, Subterfuge 3
                              Archery 4, Crafts 4, Melee 4, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                              Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Enigmas 3, Investigation 4, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                              Auspex 5, Dominate 5, Thaumaturgy 5 (Creatio Ignis), Potestas Elementorum 5, Iter Pernix 3, Potestas Motus 3, Potestas Tempestatum 3
                              Rituals: Levels: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5

                              Willpower 10
                              Conviction 5, Self Control 5, Courage 4
                              Domain 1, Generation 7, Herd 2, Library 5, Resources 4, Retainers 3, Talisman 5


                              Pseudo Elder
                              Strength 4, Dexterity 4, Stamina 4,
                              Charisma 4, Manipulation 4, Appearance 2
                              Perception 5, Intelligence 5, Wits 4

                              Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Subterfuge 2
                              Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Ride 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2
                              Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 3, Medicine 2, Occult 5, Politics 3

                              Auspex 4, Dominate 4, Thaumaturgy 5 (Creatio Ignis), Potestas Elementorum 4, Iter Pernix 2, Potestas Motus 3,
                              Rituals: Levels: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

                              Willpower 8
                              Conviction 5, Self Control 4, Courage 4
                              Domain 1, Generation 7, Herd 1, Library 3, Resources 3, Talisman 3



                              Pseudo Ancillae
                              Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 3,
                              Charisma 3, Manipulation 3, Appearance 2
                              Perception 4, Intelligence 4, Wits 4

                              Awareness 3, Dodge 2, Empathy 2, Subterfuge 2
                              Archery 2, Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 5
                              Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 5, Politics 2

                              Auspex 2, Dominate 2, Thaumaturgy 4 (Creatio Ignis), Potestas Elementorum Path 4, Iter Pernix 3
                              Rituals: Levels: 1, 2, 3, 4

                              Willpower 6
                              Conviction 4, Self Control 4, Courage 4
                              Domain 1, Generation 6, Herd 1, Library 1, Resources 2, Talisman 1


                              Tremere Neonate
                              Strength 2, Dexterity 4, Stamina 2,
                              Charisma 2, Manipulation 2, Appearance 2
                              Perception 3, Intelligence 4, Wits 3

                              Awareness 3, Dodge 2,
                              Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 3
                              Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 3

                              Auspex 2, Dominate 2, Thaumaturgy 3 (Creatio Ignis), Iter Pernix 1
                              Rituals: Levels: 1, 2, 3

                              Willpower 5
                              Conviction 4, Self Control 3, Courage 4
                              Domain 1, Generation 5, Herd1


                              Tremere Fledgeling
                              Strength 2, Dexterity 4, Stamina 2,
                              Charisma 2, Manipulation 2, Appearance 2
                              Perception 3, Intelligence 4, Wits 3

                              Awareness 3, Dodge 2,
                              Crafts 3, Melee 3, Stealth 3
                              Academics 2, Cosmology 2, Investigation 2, Occult 3

                              Auspex 2, Thaumaturgy 2 (Creatio Ignis)
                              Rituals: Levels: 1, 2

                              Willpower 3
                              Conviction 4, Self Control 3, Courage 3
                              Domain 1, Generation 5, Herd1

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Tactics are going to be a bigger mess. They're looking nasty on either side but a lot has to be determined first and I still haven't gotten around to reading all about the gargoyles. Also, I have to figure out what sorts of things the Gangrel and Tzimisce will send.

                                So far, my idea is that the 3 nearby houses will be assembling a combined war party of some sort in one of the Order Chanties near Transylvania and then marching to somewhere not too far from the known Tremere HQ and attempting to conquer it, hoping first to keep it intact, and then destroying the place utterly if that fails.

                                The Tremere on the other hand will have wiped out or driven off other Order mages in Transylvania and will be doing their best to indirectly harass this war party until it reaches the supposed Tremere HQ, which they have likely turned into some sort of trap. If the death trap, harassment, and the strain of travel through Transylvania has taken its toll on the War party, they will mount a major offensive in an attempt to wipe out these guys.

                                In the meantime, other Tremere groups will be attempting to blood bind mages left in the nearby Order strongholds just outside of Transylvania.

                                At this point, the Gangrel who, assisted by the Nosferatu, are looking for some opportunity to deal a major blow to the Tremere, will notice the Mage war band and try and figure out how to take advantage of it.

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