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Renaissance Order of Reason and Giovanni in Italia

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  • Renaissance Order of Reason and Giovanni in Italia

    As we are all know, Italia was strategic base of the OoR, even more so than Western Europe and Iberia.

    Especially the High Guild - Italia and its city states were key points of the High Guild's. Half of the High Guild's Primii resided in Italia and Venezia republic was the most important lifeline to the Guild. To the High Guild, it was the center of operation.

    Interestingly enough, Venice was stronghold of the Giovanni. And Giovanni and High Guild's vested interest, sphere of operation and
    specialities were very much overlapped.

    In short, Giovanni was potential rival of the High Guild.


    So why the OoR did not eradicate the Giovanni? It is doubtful that High Guild would leave its competitors unmolested. It is even more doubtful that Giovanni could withstand against mustered might of the OoR, even if it is distracted by ongoing Sorcerer's Crusade.

    And if I remember correctly, during renaissance Giovanni was in conflict with Camarilla, so they could not afford to open another front, nor put up a defense. OoR was fully capable of simply rolling Giovanni over and wiping out those filthy incestuous vile leeches hated by everyone.

    Hell, it is surprising why the Syndicate condones Giovanni's continued existence, considering the Union still maintains a major presence on Italia and other mediterranean countries, and I'm sure that location of Syndicate's central lodge would be in Venice.

  • #2
    Would the Giovanni and High Guild be at cross purposes though?

    The Giovanni began as merchants, after all, and a strong economy is in their best interest. Economies are strengthened by participation, so the High Guild benefits from the Giovanni taking part in the system that they create/sponsor.

    Things might be different if the High Guild knew that the Giovanni were vampires, but the goals of the early Order of Reason were not exactly the same as the Technocracy today, so it's possible that to the High Guild, the benefits of Giovanni participation outweighed the whole monster-element.

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    • #3
      Let's say that if the mercantile connections weren't enough and the Order of reason, and they still wanted to go to town with some leeches, they're would be a few issues right out of the gate. For one, hammering down on the Giovanni, even war-torn as they are would mean dividing their attention between the usual matters of opposing the traditions and working the mortals onto your side. The Giovanni aren't opposition to the Order of Reason and honestly, if neutrality wasn't going to work then, seeking allies among the leech clan may have been a tempting choice. Seeing as the Giovanni were at war they'd probably be willing to promise their new friends whatever they like, and given their skills could be very welcome friends.

      But let's say that it has to be war. No challengers will be permitted in Italia, only the Order may rule. The first issue you come across is vampiric nature. One of the reasons that they're so hard to fight is that they rarely will fight directly if they can help it. They've got ghouls, hirelings, and the dominated to do that. The Order of Reason are good at that too, so let's take it to the next level. The Giovanni have skills in the greater supernatural world that most vampires don't. They find that dead men, do in fact, tell tales. When you're an organization, viciously guarding your secrets and fighting a shadow war, having a gang of undead necromancers trying to root out the skeletons in your closet are one of the last things that you want. Better to just leave them be.

      Finally one of the greatest issues with fighting vampires is that it is basically impossible to truly destroy the threat, they can fill rank faster than just about anyone else, with the possible exception of wraiths, who when dealing with the Giovanni, are also being aligned against you. As well vampires have long memories and can live virtually forever. So if you start a war, you are basically gauranteed to have some pale, bloodsucker with a vendetta, coming for you and your organization in a few centuries after every last piece on the board that could be maneuvered has been.

      Ultimately, unless your truly willing to dedicate yourself to it, direct war with the vampires is too much of a hassle for anyone to deal with. Just burn the little leeches who draw too much attention or who dig to close and leave the rest to themselves. If you don't bother them, nine times out of ten, they won't bother you.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by kalinara View Post
        The Giovanni began as merchants, after all, and a strong economy is in their best interest. Economies are strengthened by participation, so the High Guild benefits from the Giovanni taking part in the system that they create/sponsor.
        Hell, given that the clan and their subsidiary families have been merchant-princes in the Italian peninsula since pre-Roman times, one might wonder how many High Guild founding members are surnamed Giovanni. During the early conspiratorial founding of the Order of Reason, the clan might legitimately not be aware that the profitable enterprise that it's investing in has anything to do with mages at all.


        I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gryffon15
          Finally one of the greatest issues with fighting vampires is that it is basically impossible to truly destroy the threat, they can fill rank faster than just about anyone else, with the possible exception of wraiths
          While this has been demonstrated fase on grounds that vampres get progressively weaker as you cull their elders, and thus become easier to destroy (and, believe me, mages can kill things faster than just about anyone else, just with a little good use of Correspondence and Forces). I want to stress this:

          Let's say that if the mercantile connections weren't enough and the Order of reason, and they still wanted to go to town with some leeches, they're would be a few issues right out of the gate. For one, hammering down on the Giovanni, even war-torn as they are would mean dividing their attention between the usual matters of opposing the traditions and working the mortals onto your side. The Giovanni aren't opposition to the Order of Reason and honestly, if neutrality wasn't going to work then, seeking allies among the leech clan may have been a tempting choice. Seeing as the Giovanni were at war they'd probably be willing to promise their new friends whatever they like, and given their skills could be very welcome friends.
          Back then, the Traditions weren't a small group of hippies trying to survive in the shadow of the monolithic Technocracy. The Traditions had the advantage in that time. Their magick was Coincidental while the Order of Reason had to make their mojo seem like a coincidence (with a few exeptions like the Gabrielites) much like the traditions have to do today.
          OoR had less numbers, less magical accumen, and not a much bigger influence than the Trads. The Traditions could have won that war if they weren't too bussy fighting themselves. Heck, some of the members of the bigest group among the Trads, the Order of Hermes, were friendlier to the OoR than thay with some of the "lesser mages" that were supposed to be their alies, if we believe in the opinions they show inSorcerers Crusade (It has sense, OoH entered the Traditions very grudgingly, Lassalle had to beat like 5 Masters to convince them, and then he died of the wounds, that's how grudgingly they entered. Then they got to be in charge because of course they wouldn't accept things to be otherwise).
          Point is, the OoR had a bigger, bader, more dangerous and threatening enemy than leeches would ever be.

          I also want to stress this:

          Originally posted by Kalinara
          The Giovanni began as merchants, after all, and a strong economy is in their best interest. Economies are strengthened by participation, so the High Guild benefits from the Giovanni taking part in the system that they create/sponsor.
          The High Guild wanted comerce to spread trough the world as part of their big master plan, and the leeches were doing just that. What's some vile gold when compared with the power to control economy at a macro level that would be gained when comerce was worldwide?. A bit of competition it's nothing compared with the beneffits the Guild would reap in the long run. Always remember that the Technocracy thinks in terms of Consensual Reality. If you got the gold, you gain a bit of temporal power in this world, but if you got the Consensus you control the world and the gold that it's part of it, you even control what "gold" means. Not going to loose that kind of wealth fighting for something so mundane as money.
          Last edited by Aleph; 04-13-2017, 06:22 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post

            Hell, given that the clan and their subsidiary families have been merchant-princes in the Italian peninsula since pre-Roman times, one might wonder how many High Guild founding members are surnamed Giovanni. During the early conspiratorial founding of the Order of Reason, the clan might legitimately not be aware that the profitable enterprise that it's investing in has anything to do with mages at all.
            What.

            How vampires could become mages? And if many of High Guild founding members were indeed Giovanni, just one more reason to eradicate their noisome parental clan.
            Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-13-2017, 08:34 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
              What.

              How vampires could become mages?
              He means non embraced/ghouled family members......

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

                He means non embraced/ghouled family members......
                I'm aware of what he means. However, as far as I know, there is no Awakened Giovanni. And if Giovanni mage exists, other family members will probably use him as a living specimen for experiments.

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                • #9
                  Giovanni mage would probably be noticed and taken by the Giovanni. High Guild was more of a Medici business. This doesn't mean that Giovanni humans couldn't have worked and dealt with the High Guild, they surely did (knowingly or unknowingly).

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                  • #10
                    The Order of Reason includes many non-Enlightened brethren (and being born to the Giovanni doesn't preclude Awakening, if we want a more radical case), and, while I'd be the first to admit I don't really get along with my family, I'm a little at sea as to why a mortal Giovanni would want to annihilate their parents in order to keep the members of their rotary club happy. The Venetian lodge in Order of Reason is noted as being fairly disinterested in addressing occult threats, after all: To them (and the Giovanni and their subsidiary households), it's just another place to gather influence in trade.


                    I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                      The Order of Reason includes many non-Enlightened brethren (and being born to the Giovanni doesn't preclude Awakening, if we want a more radical case), and, while I'd be the first to admit I don't really get along with my family, I'm a little at sea as to why a mortal Giovanni would want to annihilate their parents in order to keep the members of their rotary club happy. The Venetian lodge in Order of Reason is noted as being fairly disinterested in addressing occult threats, after all: To them (and the Giovanni and their subsidiary households), it's just another place to gather influence in trade.
                      So Venetian High Guild and Order of Reason simply did not mind, or pay attention, about a wealthy vampire clan stirring in the middle of their seat of power?

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                      • #12
                        Certainly seems that way!

                        But really, 1.) It was the Giovanni's seat of power first, 2.) "I am against my brother, my brother and I are against my cousin, my cousin and I are against the stranger."

                        The High Guild are not the ideological hardliners of the Order of Reason, and the Giovanni are perfectly reasonable business partners and allies against the efforts of mortal lords and clergymen that seek to smother mercantile power in the crib. And the Giovanni don't oppose the High Guild's efforts - they advance and finance them, wittingly or no. Even if the High Guild inexplicably manages not to include members of one of the world's oldest and most influential merchant clans, they're on the same page.


                        I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                        • #13
                          Remember in the Renaissance, they would also have cautionary tales of how well getting in a pissing match over territory with vampires worked out for House Tremere from a mage's perspective. I doubt anyone would have a detailed knowledge of what exactly went down, but the bottom line would be "mage organization picks fight with Eastern European night creatures, gets contaminated, 400+ years later IS an organization of night creatures."
                          Last edited by Matt the Bruins fan; 04-13-2017, 09:19 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                            Certainly seems that way!
                            Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post

                            But really, 1.) It was the Giovanni's seat of power first, 2.) "I am against my brother, my brother and I are against my cousin, my cousin and I are against the stranger."

                            The High Guild are not the ideological hardliners of the Order of Reason, and the Giovanni are perfectly reasonable business partners and allies against the efforts of mortal lords and clergymen that seek to smother mercantile power in the crib. And the Giovanni don't oppose the High Guild's efforts - they advance and finance them, wittingly or no. Even if the High Guild inexplicably manages not to include members of one of the world's oldest and most influential merchant clans, they're on the same page.

                            Hmm. I have thought since Venezia was the Giovanni's seat of power first, it gives OoR more than enough motivation and incentives to raze it to the grounds and claim its fruits for their own so achieve monopoly of business.

                            Anyway, I'm beginning to think there are many mortal Giovanni(and possibly Awakened ones) member in the High Guild... And if so, yeah, it could be said Giovanni and High Guild were allies and former helped to advance and finance latter's goal.

                            Do you have any opinion regarding modern Syndicate-Giovanni relationship dynamics in Italy, Greece and other regions of
                            Mediterranean Europe? I speculate they are not aware of each others existence at all, regardless their renaissance partnership(sort of).

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan
                              Remember in the Renaissance, they would also have cautionary tales of how well getting in a pissing match over territory with vampires worked out for House Tremere from a mage's perspective. I doubt anyone would have a detailed knowledge of what exactly went down, but the bottom line would be "mage organization picks fight with Eastern European night creatures, gets contaminated, 400+ years later IS an organization of night creatures."
                              Not really, some groups within the Celestial Chorus happily hunt vampires even today. I can only guess that with the Church's fires burning in all it's glory, more than a few religious mages got into that business.

                              The thing it's that High Guild weren't paladins fighting evil, they hadn't quarrel against the Giovanni.

                              One should better ask how the Inquisition, the Gabrielites, and the Celestial Chorus tolerated a gang of vampires near holy Rome, of all places.
                              Last edited by Aleph; 04-13-2017, 10:24 PM.

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