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Summoning an Incarna

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  • Summoning an Incarna

    Say that there is 5 mages. Each of them have 5 on Spirit, and 4 on everything else. Can they summon an incarna to do something, and if so, how would they go about convincing the incarna to help them?

  • #2
    Sounds more like like a plot thing, so St hand wave. If you want to roll it out though it would probably be some big long ritual under very specific conditions

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    • #3
      Yep. Exactly as BurritoMage said.

      A few observations:

      1° Spirit 2 it's enough to summon any spirit (4 it's to compell it to come). However the higher level a mage has in Spirit, the higher respect he has among the Spirit world. Since an Incarna isn't going to be easily "forced" to come (and doing so will surely anger the spirit, and I assume you don't want to be the target of a god's ire), having great Spirit may be marginaly better than having it lower.

      2° Incarna's never go to Earth. It's not just that they don't want to, but it's actually extremely difficult for them to appear in person outside of the Umbra. An Incarna will almost surely send an avatar to speak witn the Mage.

      If you want the Incarna itself to appear, it's akin to what Nephandi were doing in WW2 to summon their masters. You may be interested in their doings in order to gauge the difficulty of the feat.

      3° An Incarna has a host of spirits that work for them. Why should the Incarna answer a summon instead of just sending a minor spirit to negotiate with the mages?. In fact, why shouldn't the Incarna summon the mage to it's realm to speak properly?

      The polite way of bargaining with an Incarna it's to visit their Realm. Summoning him it's very arrogant of the mages to beggin with, and the most likely answer would be not to come.

      Forcing it to come would be very unwise, and it would be the stuff of legends. Aka, it would be more difficult.

      4° Incarna are all different. Not all will want the same thing, not all will answer to the same things. The ritual, and how would they go about convincing it should vary between spirits and what do you ask of them. They will probably want something big, since you got them to come to the muddball, but the ST has to decide how the spirit thinks.

      It would be wise of the Mages to research everything that has anything to do with that spirit.

      5° In Horizon: Stronghold of Hope, summoning and binding an Incarna was a ritual of Spirit 6 . While this use of the Spheres has been deprecated to some extent, it gives an idea of the dificulty we're talking.
      As in, Archmaster level of difficulty. However, that it's hard doesn't mean you can't do it.
      Last edited by Aleph; 04-13-2017, 07:47 PM.

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      • #4
        To echo Aleph, I don't think Spirit 5 in multiple hands would be enough to compel an incarna level spirit to appear, for that you'd need Spirit 6 and a whole lot of successes. It would do for opening a gateway to the home of one and personally entreating it, and Spirit 2 is all that's really necessary to make it aware of your request.

        As for the convincing, lots of chiminage and ass-kissing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
          lots of chiminage and ass-kissing.
          Better stick with this.

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          • #6
            kinda strange though. incarna have ridiculously high gnosis(aka the gauntlet doesn't exist for them) and yet they can't visit earth unless summoned? have any rules ever be given for this?

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            • #7
              Both Books of Madness have substantial rules about Umbrood, so I would start there to look for rules. Book of Worlds or Infinite Tapestry may have additional information too.

              My guess, without digging through the books, is that the problem with incarna appearing on Earth unsummoned is probably similar to the reasons why so many Archmages and Marauders end up leaving Earth. Earth can be very uncomfortable for powerful beings, and even though I'd imagine Incarna would be more like Marauders (i.e. immune to most direct paradox), their presence would still have tremendous effects on reality around them.

              Additionally, many incarna may be constrained by their nature or roles. Spirits are bound by many things that humans may find imperceptible or incomprehensible. So even if they have the physical capability to come to Earth, there may be other requirements before they are willing or able to leave their realm. (Atlas needed Hercules to carry the world for him, for example.)

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              • #8
                Dont Forget, if you have Crossover Material in your game, the Garou may come to have a 'little chat' about blasphemy.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mark View Post
                  kinda strange though. incarna have ridiculously high gnosis(aka the gauntlet doesn't exist for them) and yet they can't visit earth unless summoned? have any rules ever be given for this?
                  Well, there's one that's basically bound in Yellowstone in Werewolf, and if it got free, it would change the world rather heavily and destructively, akin to a supervolcanic eruption. So, basically, Incarnae don't visit the material world because it would cause massive amounts of collateral damage if they did.

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                  • #10
                    Chances are an Incarna would send a high ranking Jaggling pretending to be the Incarna to see what the mages are trying to do and decide whether the Incarna may be able to benefit from their request.


                    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31b: Removed

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                      To echo Aleph, I don't think Spirit 5 in multiple hands would be enough to compel an incarna level spirit to appear, for that you'd need Spirit 6 and a whole lot of successes. It would do for opening a gateway to the home of one and personally entreating it, and Spirit 2 is all that's really necessary to make it aware of your request.

                      As for the convincing, lots of chiminage and ass-kissing.
                      Unless the Incarna in question doesn't respect ass-kissing.

                      That's the thing about Spirits, they can have very alien attitudes on courtesy and decorum. Many appreciate fawning adulation, many others do not. An Incarna might well take the attitude:"You damn well better treat me as an equal because if you thought you were unworthy and you tried to see me anyways things are going to go very badly for you." Or "You're not worth my time if you aren't a threat to me." Or any of a hundred other stances that demand the mages be audacious, tenacious, or otherwise arrogant.



                      Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                      • #12
                        As far as I can tell, physical reality is too 'coarse' for Celestines and Incarnae to cross the Gauntlet. Earth is too small, too minuscule, to allow the gods entrance.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah, who knows, maybe the Incarna respects shows of strenght over petty bargain. Perhaps the spirit demands you to fight him to show your guts (both literally and metaphorically). Then again, "lots of chiminage and ass-kissing" in Werewolf means to give the spirit what he wants...if he wants to be treated as an equal, well, you better start acting like that.

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                          • #14
                            yeah,but demon lords are said to be explicitly unable to enter earth.after all,i doubt many of them would have an issue with their arrival causin some trouble

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
                              Dont Forget, if you have Crossover Material in your game, the Garou may come to have a 'little chat' about blasphemy.
                              To mage stronghold... that have enough mojo to be summoning gods... please, send more self-delivering rugs and experiment materials. Not to mention, not just mages but the god in question may also get pissed off for interfearing in it's business.

                              Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                              Chances are an Incarna would send a high ranking Jaggling pretending to be the Incarna to see what the mages are trying to do and decide whether the Incarna may be able to benefit from their request.
                              ​yeap, that seems to be standard. Mentioned in Blood Treachery, over hermetic archangels.

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