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  • Magadon has ties with the Progenitors?

    It seems most of their stuff, including mockery breeds, are derived from Enlightened Science, rather than Sleeper science.

    Still, I think it would be reasonable, even appropriate, if it has been started as one of the Syndicate's hypertech front companies, However, AFAIK, Magadon is an exception of rule. Unlike rest of the Pentex, it was found and developed without any Syndicate investment and/or management, and after its insolvency, purchased and incorporated into Pentex.

    So, how they managed to obtain near-hypertech? How they are able to conduct and advance their research, without Enlightened spark of genius? And why the Progenitors are watching and doing nothing against Magadon?

  • #2
    Megadon also has the benefit of magic in the form of Wyrm spirits.

    What exactly is Megadon doing that would bring it to the attention of the Progenitors, and what incentive do the Progenitors have to do anything about it?

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    • #3
      Posthumanity it seems like you are desperate to somehow tie the technocracy as a whole to Pentex, why is that? Can't the conspiracy stand on its own two feet?
      Last edited by BurritoMage; 04-19-2017, 07:22 PM.

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      • #4
        The Technocracy doesn't have a monopoly on technomagick. Two Traditions prove that, and despite their histories as Technocratic Conventions, have branched out and refined their own methods. Magadon could have poached Progenitors from the Union, and had them form research divisions with other Magadon-controlled mages. Or, alternatively, Magadon could have developed their Practices independently, using their own Awakened to refine base science into something greater.

        Like Caitiff Primogen said, they could also have developed medical magic by studying closely with Wyrm spirits.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
          The Technocracy doesn't have a monopoly on technomagick. Two Traditions prove that, and despite their histories as Technocratic Conventions, have branched out and refined their own methods. Magadon could have poached Progenitors from the Union, and had them form research divisions with other Magadon-controlled mages. Or, alternatively, Magadon could have developed their Practices independently, using their own Awakened to refine base science into something greater.

          Like Caitiff Primogen said, they could also have developed medical magic by studying closely with Wyrm spirits.
          "Egad! What is this wondrous procedure?"

          "...it's a sugar pill. It literally doesn't do anything - a placebo. We just sell the excess as a 'dietary supplement'."

          "BRILLIANT! Why didn't we think of that?"

          "Well, we didn't either. Someone else did, a long time ago. Now, who are you and how did you get in here?"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
            Megadon also has the benefit of magic in the form of Wyrm spirits.

            What exactly is Megadon doing that would bring it to the attention of the Progenitors, and what incentive do the Progenitors have to do anything about it?
            If it is a crossover setting, it would be reasonable to assume Progenitors are going to exhibit great interest in Magadon. It is a large pharmaceutical corporation. In fact, the third largest one. However, it is not under control or influence of Progenitors, and they are independently cooking up advanced, potentially Enlightened, medicines.

            So yes, I think it gives Progenitors and Syndicate more than enough reason to conduct investigation. And the consequence would be...dire, and disturbing. They will initiate purge in an instant if they figure out true face of Magadon.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post
              Posthumanity it seems like you are desperate to somehow tie the technocracy as a whole to Pentex, why is that? Can't the conspiracy stand on its own two feet?
              On the contrary, just like many others, I distaste Technocracy-Pentex connection. I also think coexistence of Technocracy and Pentex is extremely improbable. If Pentex is as powerful as WtA portraying, not only the Syndicate, but the entire Union, has to implement exhaustive investigations and examination and discover what is actually going inside benevolent facade of the megacop.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                If it is a crossover setting, it would be reasonable to assume Progenitors are going to exhibit great interest in Magadon. It is a large pharmaceutical corporation. In fact, the third largest one. However, it is not under control or influence of Progenitors, and they are independently cooking up advanced, potentially Enlightened, medicines.

                So yes, I think it gives Progenitors and Syndicate more than enough reason to conduct investigation. And the consequence would be...dire, and disturbing. They will initiate purge in an instant if they figure out true face of Magadon.
                They can investigate, but it's no guarantee that they'll actually find anything, because the overwhelming majority of the business that it does is par for course, normal stuff, and what isn't involves forces that the investigatory group would require a group of VE consultants to take a look at in order to understand it... and even they still largely won't, due to vidare constraints on parsing the primal nature of the corruption it involves. Besides, with its reliance on merciless industries cranking out shit without regard for the actual well-being of anything, the Technocracy is in no position to be acting against any bad apples. Even without a single Nephandus in the Union, it still rests on a rotten foundation.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                  They can investigate, but it's no guarantee that they'll actually find anything, because the overwhelming majority of the business that it does is par for course, normal stuff, and what isn't involves forces that the investigatory group would require a group of VE consultants to take a look at in order to understand it... and even they still largely won't, due to vidare constraints on parsing the primal nature of the corruption it involves. Besides, with its reliance on merciless industries cranking out shit without regard for the actual well-being of anything, the Technocracy is in no position to be acting against any bad apples. Even without a single Nephandus in the Union, it still rests on a rotten foundation.
                  Rests on a rotten foundation or not, every sane technocrat would be disgusted and appalled no end at misdeeds of Megadon, or, for that matter, any other Pentex subsidiaries. Even if we take Technephandi Union metaplot, most of agents below Nephandi Inner Circle are fundamentally good, idealistic people.

                  Furthermore, many agents specialized at investigation and eradication of ghosts, spirits, demons and various anomalies learn Dimensional Science. It is no small wonder corruption of SPD has not been revealed for decades in the WtA crossover option. Another contrived impossibility.
                  Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-21-2017, 11:58 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                    Rests on a rotten foundation or not, every sane technocrat would be disgusted and appalled no end at misdeeds of Megadon, or, for that matter, any other Pentex subsidiaries. Even if we take Technephandi Union metaplot, most of agents below Nephandi Inner Circle are fundamentally good, idealistic people.
                    They don't need to be Nephandi. They just have to rely on the status quo, which I'm pretty sure the Union does, to a very strong degree. Magadon makes a lot of money, and the Technocracy relies on that being the case. In order to actually scour themselves free of corruption, the Union would have to shoot themselves in both feet a few times.

                    Furthermore, many agents specialized at investigation and eradication of ghosts, spirits, demons and various anomalies learn Dimensional Science. It is no small wonder corruption of SPD has not been revealed for decades in the WtA crossover option. Another contrived impossibility.
                    They may be able to recognize entities, but I don't think that DS specialists are very up on the differences between them. After all, they still think that ghosts are just taking on the memories and identities of the dead, rather than actually being the spirits of the deceased. They probably can't really discern many of the differences between banes and spectres at the rate they're going. After all, the Garou and Fera largely tend to think of spectres as banes themselves, and they pretty much live in the Umbra.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      They don't need to be Nephandi. They just have to rely on the status quo, which I'm pretty sure the Union does, to a very strong degree. Magadon makes a lot of money, and the Technocracy relies on that being the case. In order to actually scour themselves free of corruption, the Union would have to shoot themselves in both feet a few times.
                      What do you mean? Magadon does not benefit the Union in any conceivable way. Union is relying on world economy to sustain itself. Scouring Pentex itself would destabilize world economy, to be sure. However, destroying a large corporation holds no meaningful impact on the Union, and there are many substitutes fully able to fill Magadon's position.

                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                      They may be able to recognize entities, but I don't think that DS specialists are very up on the differences between them. After all, they still think that ghosts are just taking on the memories and identities of the dead, rather than actually being the spirits of the deceased. They probably can't really discern many of the differences between banes and spectres at the rate they're going. After all, the Garou and Fera largely tend to think of spectres as banes themselves, and they pretty much live in the Umbra.
                      And do you think if a technocrat sees bane-possessed person, he will do not take any action, whether he knows the truth or not? Remember, Technocracy deems dimensional breach and contamination as one of the direst threat on safety of the Earth and humanity and takes it extremely seriously.
                      Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-21-2017, 03:18 PM.

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                      • #12
                        By the story of it, I'm guessing some of the original (now dead) founders of Magadon were Enlightened, science-minded, will-workers who were independent from the technocracy and the guys who now run Magadon are pretty much working off these guys notes. Add in Wyrm magic to some stuff made using Awakened magic and you can get evil hypertech, I guess.

                        The way I see the Pentex-Technocracy thing, I don't see how anyone in the Union would be looking too closely at these "mundane businesses" and any weirdness can be covered up by a few corrupt high-level individuals within the Union who are good at hiding things and editing data. I don't even see how Magadon would be of too much interest to the Progenitors except as a supplier of pharmaceutical products. It's not like they advertise the secret stuff they do.

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                        • #13
                          Why would we think that Magadon is regularly pushing new, cutting-edge therapies to the public? I don't recall anything suggesting that its product lines are particularly innovative - merely that it has a broad presence in a lot of high-demand fields. They don't really need to "innovate" in the hypertech sense when doing just-not-quite-enough is so profitable.

                          Magadon's "unusual" chemicals are usually just Wyrmish - that's "extraordinary science" (linear sorcery), so it's neither Enlightened nor Sleeper, really. Even if a Unionist got their hands on a tainted drug from their tiny line of sorcerous products, it can be hard for DimSci users to see middle umbral spirits, especially sessile ones. It'd just look like an extraordinary therapy with some bad side effects, which is to be expected of what happens when Sleepers innovate for themselves without letting Big Brother hold their hand.

                          Magadon is also noted (in Subsidiaries, particularly) as being the most subtle and careful of Pentex's operations - 99% of what they're doing is innocent. If the Garou have trouble spotting what's rotten about the corporation, it'd strain credulity for an uninterested third party to have caught on. From an outsider perspective, Magadon is a major industry leader with a mostly-clean record that has charitably advanced a research-sharing scheme and whose PR branch selflessly works to dispel "uncharitable myths" about the healthcare industry - even going so far as to speak on behalf of their business rivals. Magadon's RMN is, publicly, doing the Progenitors proud - bringing modern medicine to underserved, superstitious communities.

                          The average Progenitor probably unironically says to themselves "I wish more pharmaceutical companies acted as nobly as Magadon does."

                          (If you want to keep your setting integrated tidily: The Mockery Breeds are a product of NDL, which is a Pentex front that steals research data from DNA and which is operated as part of Project Iliad - which is under the auspices of Pentex's Special Projects Division, which should be a familiar name. Remember how Plexic turns ItX programming into Sleeper analytic engines? That sort of thing was SPD's job. What do you imagine they did with all that cutting-edge Progenitor genetic knowhow?)


                          I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
                            Why would we think that Magadon is regularly pushing new, cutting-edge therapies to the public? I don't recall anything suggesting that its product lines are particularly innovative - merely that it has a broad presence in a lot of high-demand fields. They don't really need to "innovate" in the hypertech sense when doing just-not-quite-enough is so profitable.

                            Magadon's "unusual" chemicals are usually just Wyrmish - that's "extraordinary science" (linear sorcery), so it's neither Enlightened nor Sleeper, really. Even if a Unionist got their hands on a tainted drug from their tiny line of sorcerous products, it can be hard for DimSci users to see middle umbral spirits, especially sessile ones. It'd just look like an extraordinary therapy with some bad side effects, which is to be expected of what happens when Sleepers innovate for themselves without letting Big Brother hold their hand.

                            Magadon is also noted (in Subsidiaries, particularly) as being the most subtle and careful of Pentex's operations - 99% of what they're doing is innocent. If the Garou have trouble spotting what's rotten about the corporation, it'd strain credulity for an uninterested third party to have caught on. From an outsider perspective, Magadon is a major industry leader with a mostly-clean record that has charitably advanced a research-sharing scheme and whose PR branch selflessly works to dispel "uncharitable myths" about the healthcare industry - even going so far as to speak on behalf of their business rivals. Magadon's RMN is, publicly, doing the Progenitors proud - bringing modern medicine to underserved, superstitious communities.

                            The average Progenitor probably unironically says to themselves "I wish more pharmaceutical companies acted as nobly as Magadon does."

                            (If you want to keep your setting integrated tidily: The Mockery Breeds are a product of NDL, which is a Pentex front that steals research data from DNA and which is operated as part of Project Iliad - which is under the auspices of Pentex's Special Projects Division, which should be a familiar name. Remember how Plexic turns ItX programming into Sleeper analytic engines? That sort of thing was SPD's job. What do you imagine they did with all that cutting-edge Progenitor genetic knowhow?)
                            Your answer is the most perfect. Thank you for thoroughly enlightening me.

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