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What is the primary difference between the Syndicate, the Ventrue and the Giovanni?

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  • What is the primary difference between the Syndicate, the Ventrue and the Giovanni?

    Yeah, their goals and paradigms are ultimately different. However, their conducts, practices and performances in business seem...more or less same except minor quirks, variants, preferences, propensities and priorities.

    Is their any strategic, macro-scale, established, fundamental difference between behaviors and manners of those three groups? ,

  • #2
    Call it Syndicate propaganda but I'll put this out as something that would cause their financial behavior to deviate greatly from those of other organizations.

    Taken from the first Syndicate splat Mission Statement:
    The Syndicate is committed to establishing the perfect reality of value. We pledge ourselves to maximizing the worth of the Masses' labor, to securing that worth against all forms of devaluation, and to organizing that value structure in accordance with our Enlightened leadership and perception of the ultimate power of value among the masses.

    The Syndicate is trying to do more than just earn money for the use of an organization. They are literally trying to change the way the world works, the way people behave, and the nature of value and money. Even if they were to deviate from their stated goals, their difference in perspective regarding what money is will lead them to act considerably differently from the typical business organization. Rather than simply trying to gain enough resources to control their world, they are trying to control as much of the resources of the world as possible with as much fine control as they can manage so that they can change the way the world works at the fundamental level... and incidentally gain control over reality.

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    • #3
      I think one of the core and primary differences between the syndicate and the kindred duo is the time scale. The syndicate is far more willing to invest in the new, while the kindred keep their roots strongly laid in the old. The Syndicate have a propensity for finding the next big financial innovation that will drive the industry into the future. As well the syndicate has invested interest in keeping the financial sector safe, stable, and bountiful not only for themselves and the technocracy but for the sleepers who's way of life heavily relies upon a stable financial market, while the kindred see only a need to benefit themselves. The syndicate keeps it's finger on the pulse and ensures a healthy flow of blood not only to the areas where they are already powerful but to areas with less stability. The syndicate wants to manipulate the world market to try and develop new markets in developing nations to spread the reach of their power and influence, which as it stands, while extremely powerful in the first world developed nations, the situation is far more chaotic in the third world nations with under-developed economies prone to seemingly chaotic change.

      While the syndicate is developing and ensuring stability, keeping their fingers on the pulse, the kindred are slashing the palm to let blood. Both the Ventrue and the Giovanni are dedicated to growing their clan's and personal coffers and possessing influence in the sector. Neither clan have much care for reaching the hand to guide development, but they have a massive investment in ensuring stability. Not out of any love of the sleepers, but out of the knowledge that stability=safety, and the kindred love nothing if not safety and stability. That's why they're careful about where they inject their, in this case, figurative fangs and suck out the blood of the economy. Everyone knows that the leeches are parasites and here is no different. They steal blood from the economy, but ensure it stays strong enough to keep chugging along.

      Between the Giovanni and the Ventrue there are not as many core differences between their styles except in desire of what they wish to achieve. For the Ventrue it's the sense of power and influence that comes from controlling a powerful corporation, a sort of modern glass and steel barony. The blue bloods have always been rulers at heart, and will gravitate to the nearest seat of power and influence and in this age that is the corporation, which they can bend into political, economic, and public influence. The Ventrue want to rule. The Giovanni on the other hand are different from the born rulers turned CEOs. They were born merchants turned into even more powerful and influential merchants. They don't care about the legions of employees or the respect that their choice companies wield, (although both of those are very nice), they care about the resources that the company represents. If they see a way to drive one of their companies into the ground, to the benefit of another company, that will wield a greater yield with the other kaput and earn enough to make up the difference, they'll do it in a second. While the Ventrue would battle to the very end in the name of their chosen company, until even they bitterly realize the battle is over, the Giovanni would see a company failing, cut ties, play the insider trading game, sell off what they can and let the company die a cold, unremembered death.

      That last example about the Ventrue and the Giovanni and they're failing company can also be expanded to highlight the syndicate. If it was their company failing, unlike the so-proud ruler clan or the ever-pragmatic merchant clan, The Syndicate wouldn't be bothered in the slightest. The Syndicate doesn't operate at the company level, it operates at the market level. Where one company fails, a new company, which has learned from the other's failures, will rise. The market goes on, perhaps even stronger and The Syndicate merely mark a note in their books at it's passing and recalibrate the formulas to account for the rising company. That, at least to me, shows the core differences between The Syndicate, Ventrue, and Giovanni, with regards to the corporate and financial sector.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
        I think one of the core and primary differences between the syndicate and the kindred duo is the time scale. The syndicate is far more willing to invest in the new, while the kindred keep their roots strongly laid in the old. The Syndicate have a propensity for finding the next big financial innovation that will drive the industry into the future. As well the syndicate has invested interest in keeping the financial sector safe, stable, and bountiful not only for themselves and the technocracy but for the sleepers who's way of life heavily relies upon a stable financial market, while the kindred see only a need to benefit themselves. The syndicate keeps it's finger on the pulse and ensures a healthy flow of blood not only to the areas where they are already powerful but to areas with less stability. The syndicate wants to manipulate the world market to try and develop new markets in developing nations to spread the reach of their power and influence, which as it stands, while extremely powerful in the first world developed nations, the situation is far more chaotic in the third world nations with under-developed economies prone to seemingly chaotic change.

        While the syndicate is developing and ensuring stability, keeping their fingers on the pulse, the kindred are slashing the palm to let blood. Both the Ventrue and the Giovanni are dedicated to growing their clan's and personal coffers and possessing influence in the sector. Neither clan have much care for reaching the hand to guide development, but they have a massive investment in ensuring stability. Not out of any love of the sleepers, but out of the knowledge that stability=safety, and the kindred love nothing if not safety and stability. That's why they're careful about where they inject their, in this case, figurative fangs and suck out the blood of the economy. Everyone knows that the leeches are parasites and here is no different. They steal blood from the economy, but ensure it stays strong enough to keep chugging along.

        Between the Giovanni and the Ventrue there are not as many core differences between their styles except in desire of what they wish to achieve. For the Ventrue it's the sense of power and influence that comes from controlling a powerful corporation, a sort of modern glass and steel barony. The blue bloods have always been rulers at heart, and will gravitate to the nearest seat of power and influence and in this age that is the corporation, which they can bend into political, economic, and public influence. The Ventrue want to rule. The Giovanni on the other hand are different from the born rulers turned CEOs. They were born merchants turned into even more powerful and influential merchants. They don't care about the legions of employees or the respect that their choice companies wield, (although both of those are very nice), they care about the resources that the company represents. If they see a way to drive one of their companies into the ground, to the benefit of another company, that will wield a greater yield with the other kaput and earn enough to make up the difference, they'll do it in a second. While the Ventrue would battle to the very end in the name of their chosen company, until even they bitterly realize the battle is over, the Giovanni would see a company failing, cut ties, play the insider trading game, sell off what they can and let the company die a cold, unremembered death.

        That last example about the Ventrue and the Giovanni and they're failing company can also be expanded to highlight the syndicate. If it was their company failing, unlike the so-proud ruler clan or the ever-pragmatic merchant clan, The Syndicate wouldn't be bothered in the slightest. The Syndicate doesn't operate at the company level, it operates at the market level. Where one company fails, a new company, which has learned from the other's failures, will rise. The market goes on, perhaps even stronger and The Syndicate merely mark a note in their books at it's passing and recalibrate the formulas to account for the rising company. That, at least to me, shows the core differences between The Syndicate, Ventrue, and Giovanni, with regards to the corporate and financial sector.
        That is thoroughly valid. Very well thought-out, insightful, comprehensive, reasonable answer. I salute you.
        Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-21-2017, 02:52 PM.

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        • #5
          Thank you very much, I'm glad that you folks liked it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
            Yeah, their goals and paradigms are ultimately different. However, their conducts, practices and performances in business seem...more or less same except minor quirks, variants, preferences, propensities and priorities.

            Is their any strategic, macro-scale, established, fundamental difference between behaviors and manners of those three groups? ,
            Goals and morals.

            The Syndicate, Goal: A perfect economy that will perfectly reward the diligent and provide a decent living for all Worthy people. Moral Value: Industry and Loyalty to the Convention.

            The Ventrue, Goal: a stable order to provide security for Cainites and Humans alike. Moral Values: Loyalty to Clan, Loyalty to the Camarilla, Integrity. In THAT order.

            The Giovanni Goal: Dominion over all. Moral Value: Loyalty to the Family and the leader of the Family/Clan.

            Simple, but it covers the key issues.

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            • #7
              No vampire thinks of Finance as a "higher purpose" the Syndicate is filled with people who are searching for Ascension through financial interaction. Money is a tool for a Vampire. Money is a purpose for a Syndicate Agent. They are the true believers in various economic theories.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                No vampire thinks of Finance as a "higher purpose" the Syndicate is filled with people who are searching for Ascension through financial interaction. Money is a tool for a Vampire. Money is a purpose for a Syndicate Agent. They are the true believers in various economic theories.
                It's a bit more complicated than that. To the Syndicate Agent, Money is still technically a tool, but not just any tool. It is the ultimate tool. From the book itself, Ascension "comes from controlling the flow of money, and from making the symbiotic connection between money and human happiness." "At its core, money is, in and of itself, an illusion. It is a medium of exchange, nothing more, nothing less. But the belief in that medium, the implicit trust in that a dollar is worth a dollar gives money and our Syndicate a short and easy road to the Ascension of our reality."

                So, control of the flow of money = control of humanity = control of reality.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Spacecat View Post

                  It's a bit more complicated than that. To the Syndicate Agent, Money is still technically a tool, but not just any tool. It is the ultimate tool. From the book itself, Ascension "comes from controlling the flow of money, and from making the symbiotic connection between money and human happiness." "At its core, money is, in and of itself, an illusion. It is a medium of exchange, nothing more, nothing less. But the belief in that medium, the implicit trust in that a dollar is worth a dollar gives money and our Syndicate a short and easy road to the Ascension of our reality."

                  So, control of the flow of money = control of humanity = control of reality.

                  Its more complicated because you can have all manner of Syndicate members including those who might push more socialist agendas.(Though they have likely found difficulties on the modern Syndicate).

                  The Syndicate sees Finance and the act of Trade as the key to Enlightenment(Or the end of all things since they do tend to have HIGH Nephandi infiltraition level)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    The Syndicate sees Finance and the act of Trade as the key to Enlightenment(Or the end of all things since they do tend to have HIGH Nephandi infiltraition level)
                    And the Nephandi shall be converted by the power of money into Moneyphandi!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post


                      Its more complicated because you can have all manner of Syndicate members including those who might push more socialist agendas.
                      True that.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post


                        Its more complicated because you can have all manner of Syndicate members including those who might push more socialist agendas.(Though they have likely found difficulties on the modern Syndicate).

                        The Syndicate sees Finance and the act of Trade as the key to Enlightenment(Or the end of all things since they do tend to have HIGH Nephandi infiltraition level)
                        Do they? They say they do (sometimes but not always or even frequently), but there isn't much evidence of it.

                        Seems more like "socialist" in the sense of economics (as opposed to socialism in a political sense) is one of those tension points between the N.W.O. and the Syndicate where the Syndicate feels like the N.W.O is trying to butt in where they aren't wanted and shouldn't be. The Syndicate LIKES to capitalize things. That gives a sense of their worth and value that is a key point of their ur-paradigm/praxis/whatever-you-want-to-call-whatever-way-of-doing-magic-that-ties-together-all-the-Foci-of-the-members-of-a-Sect-and-differentiates-them-from-outsiders-but-isn't-paradigm-anymore-because-that'- individualized.. And it makes it negotiable and responsive.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lian

                          Its more complicated because you can have all manner of Syndicate members including those who might push more socialist agendas.
                          Socialist Syndicate members are literally treated as "rogue". If you believe the revised book, these are invariably young members and are treated with the condescendence of saying that the Syndicate doesn't pursue them because "they're going to come back when they discover that all that shit doersn't work" (yeah, because mages totally work like that. Of course, if a certain powerful organization goes out of their way to prevent that shit from working, like they did with the Craftmasons...).

                          And then you have the character example that it's an ex-syndicate member of the Sons of Ether, that leaved because she had socialistic ideas and was horrified with the net of corruption that the Syndicate uses to keep the system in place. And this was before the "civil war", so we have to believe that she was horrified enough to break through the Conditioning, and enter into a group of weirdos in whose Paradigm she just doesn't believe (think about that, the Traditions are a better place to be socialist than the Syndicate).

                          Sum these two, and see how careful will have to be a Syndicate member to be "socialist" whitin the Convention. Best case scenario, you will never ascend ranks. Worst case and you can say hy to the Craftmasons

                          Always remember that the Syndicate killed a whole Convention for the "sin" of being proto-socialist
                          Last edited by Aleph; 04-22-2017, 01:31 PM.

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                          • #14
                            In a nutshell, the Syndicate is an organization with a hierarchy, rules, bases, bureaucracy, recruits, cafeteria lunch menu, etc. Vampire clans aren't. The Giovanni are a family (or rather a incestuous and corrupt web of creepy Gothic fiction family-cults) and function like one. The Ventrue are more of an extended web of patrons and apprentices (or senpai and kohai) who share a common ancestor and tend to look for similar traits or virtues in who they adopt into the "family".

                            On top of this, the Giovanni are more of a death cult than financiers (that just pays the bills), and the Ventrue are more about being upstanding lords of the Kindred and exercising the nobles oblige that comes with it, with wealth just being a facilitator of that role.
                            Last edited by No One of Consequence; 04-22-2017, 04:44 PM.


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                              Sum these two, and see how careful will have to be a Syndicate member to be "socialist" whitin the Convention. Best case scenario, you will never ascend ranks. Worst case and you can say hy to the Craftmasons

                              Exactly, Hypereconiomics as a paradigm/methodology doesn't mean Hypercapitalism but if you don't toe the line you get crushed. Its pretty much endemic of the Technocracy as a whole.

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