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  • Technocracy vs Black Spiral Dancers?

    If the Technocracy notices a Level 5 Pit and realizes the threat the BSDs pose to the locals, how likely is it that they will unleash an army of magitech wielding terminators on them?

  • #2
    It depends a lot on whether you like Mage or Werewolf more, OP.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mercurial View Post
      If the Technocracy notices a Level 5 Pit and realizes the threat the BSDs pose to the locals, how likely is it that they will unleash an army of magitech wielding terminators on them?
      The Technocracy, IMHO, generally doesn't hunt supernaturals in general but only hunts Mages.

      On the other hand, it's up to the ST and Comptroller.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Caladriu View Post
        It depends a lot on whether you like Mage or Werewolf more, OP.
        Technically, which one you're using for cosmological assumptions. If you're going by Werewolf, there isn't going to be much of a Technocracy to do much against things like evil versions of the sandworms from Dune being ridden by BSDs. If you're going with Mage, it's unlikely that whatever metaphysical belief-perception that mages, and in particular the Technocracy, have put them in the same realm as the place where the BSD pits are clearly visible.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          Technically, which one you're using for cosmological assumptions. If you're going by Werewolf, there isn't going to be much of a Technocracy to do much against things like evil versions of the sandworms from Dune being ridden by BSDs. If you're going with Mage, it's unlikely that whatever metaphysical belief-perception that mages, and in particular the Technocracy, have put them in the same realm as the place where the BSD pits are clearly visible.
          Eh, the irony of the Technocracy vs. Traditions is the problem is the latter are very easy to hide. The Technocracy is really only able to strike when they're in Horizon Realms and the Traditions are taken root.

          If the Technocracy decides to invade the BSD then they have HIT Marks, Progenitor monsters, and so on to send as cannon fodder.

          Sand worms is easy to take down with airplanes and rockets.

          The big problem is the BSD don't suffer Paradox.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Eh, the irony of the Technocracy vs. Traditions is the problem is the latter are very easy to hide. The Technocracy is really only able to strike when they're in Horizon Realms and the Traditions are taken root.

            If the Technocracy decides to invade the BSD then they have HIT Marks, Progenitor monsters, and so on to send as cannon fodder.
            True cannon fodder, that; BSDs will be using the same capacity for utterly negating technology that other Garou use, which means that all of their cannon fodder (the gibbering, broken masses that they normally send to soften up Gaian caerns) will have several turns to inflict uninterrupted ultraviolence on anything that the Technocracy sends in. The assault forces might also have the misfortune of stumbling upon toxic fungal spores, open balefire pits, or possibly even an acute angle acting as an obtuse.

            Sand worms is easy to take down with airplanes and rockets.
            Mmmmmmmmmmmmm I Don't Think So Halud. Mage exists on a level where they just don't notice the massive worm activity. Just trying to get wind of it would be a bug hunt in BSD territory. Game over, man!

            Also, rockets and bombs won't do much to larger thunderwyrms; the absolute smallest ones, at 25 feet long, still have a high enough Stamina that you'd need to use multiple rockets on one. Larger ones apparently ramp up Traits to a degree that such weapons won't do much but cause a local compromise in their hydrostatic skeleton, which is not good... for the one who fired on them, as they tend to spew out elemental toxin banes, and the fluid itself is apparently toxic as well. As with many things about Werewolf, this is not something that normal authorities or approaches are actually equipped to handle.

            The big problem is the BSD don't suffer Paradox.
            BSDs, and any other monster in Werewolf, such as Grandmother Thunderwyrm, the Inquisitors, or Vhujunka.. Also, throw on the possibility of meeting corrupted Fera, and again, bug hunt.
            Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 08-24-2017, 12:42 AM.

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            • #7
              I'm not trying to undersell the Garou, just pointing out the fact the Technocracy does actually have a no-shit actual robot army and spirit-killing nuclear weapons. They also have aggravated damage inflicting bullets which work on spirits because the VE fight spirits.

              Mind you, it's a costly victory but the big advantage the Technocracy has is they're a global organization versus a single Hive here.

              The BIG problem would be, say, Pentex vs. The Union.

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              • #8
                To answer the specific question the OP raised:

                The Technocracy would level it. With ease, if cost.

                The key point there, is if the Union "realizes the threat it poses," not any of this WtA vs. MtA stuff.

                Anything the Technocracy acknowledges as a threat - esp. non-mage Reality Deviants - is something then try to squash. If they realize they'd dealing with a level of threat that a level 5 pit carries, they're not going to bother with a bug hunt. They'll nuke it from orbit, just to be sure (even if they can't drop one of the spirit nukes for whatever reason). And then they'll cover it up as the government taking out a terrorist camp (which lets face it, that much BSD activity is going to make easy on them, "Sorry journalists, but to avoid public panic, we can only now reveal that these terrorists were trying to establish a dirty bomb factory which is why we had to act with such overwhelming force. While the bomb making material has been secured, clean up efforts are exceeding delicate and we cannot let any civilians near the scene for safety of all involved.").

                The reason why the Technocracy doesn't go around doing this most of the time, is that they usually don't realize the threat involved. The "good" supernaturals keep themselves hidden well enough that they stay off the Union's hit list (even if they don't realize it), and frequently take out the "bad" supernaturals for the Technocracy anyway. As long as the fight between the Gaians and the BSDs doesn't break out into too much collateral damage into the mortal world, the Technocracy is happy to let them kill each other.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  (...) They'll nuke it from orbit, just to be sure (even if they can't drop one of the spirit nukes for whatever reason). (...)
                  Is it written anywhere when, how, and how often can the Technocracy do this (the nuking from the orbit part) ?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I'm not trying to undersell the Garou, just pointing out the fact the Technocracy does actually have a no-shit actual robot army and spirit-killing nuclear weapons. They also have aggravated damage inflicting bullets which work on spirits because the VE fight spirits.

                    Mind you, it's a costly victory but the big advantage the Technocracy has is they're a global organization versus a single Hive here.

                    The BIG problem would be, say, Pentex vs. The Union.
                    Well, then the other hives would probably enter high alert, particularly other Level 5 Pits, and they would find out who did it, giving the rest of the Technocracy a rather severe problem to deal with in the future, particularly in Russia, where the BSDs have Zmei on their side.

                    However, Pentex vs. the Union? That's a no-contest victory for Pentex. You'd have a better time convincing the Union that all members should saw off their own feet than you would convincing them that Pentex's practices are a problem. The Union eats, breaths, and sleeps the kind of reckless economic raiding that Pentex represents. The Union as a whole is so blind to its faults that the other Conventions haven't noticed anything up with the Syndicate, and the Syndicate still thinks that there's something that they can salvage from their SPD clusterfuck. When it comes to operations, the TU always yields to the purse strings. It's the fundamental reality that they've accepted as their own, and they wouldn't be able to escape from it without completely abandoning their course for the past several centuries and starting over.

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                    • #11
                      In Mage Technocracy it's the "antivirus" of the Consensus, they're equiped with whatever they need to fulfil their role. If BSD were a notorious threath, they will be eradicated. As long as they aren't, it's a business for other people.

                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms
                      The reason why the Technocracy doesn't go around doing this most of the time, is that they usually don't realize the threat involved. The "good" supernaturals keep themselves hidden well enough that they stay off the Union's hit list (even if they don't realize it), and frequently take out the "bad" supernaturals for the Technocracy anyway. As long as the fight between the Gaians and the BSDs doesn't break out into too much collateral damage into the mortal world, the Technocracy is happy to let them kill each other.
                      <irony>Yeah, because the colateral damage caused by your average Traditional Chantry it's so much worse than what other supernaturals do every night. Yeah, totally believable</irony>

                      In Werewolf there isn't a risk of being asaulted by armies of sci-fy stuff nor killed from the orbit if you break the veil. If Technocracy was as strong in Werewolf as it's in Mage, they should be regarded as a threath on a level of magnitude equal or superior to that of DNA or Pentex First Teams (as far as hunters go. Like: you don't break the Veil, because the Weaver will send it's most potent minions if you do), instead of being regarded as a bizarre amalgamation of supernatural researchers that unwittingly serves the Weaver and rarely enters in contact with Garou (and, yeah, I know Technocracy doesn't care for spirits...but if you manage to get your terrorist mage captured in camera while he's "in a mythical beast form with an aura of fear", I would think they would send someone to investigate)

                      If the Wyrm was as active in Mage as it's in Werewolf...well, actually, you can have that because the only ones who may care are Void Engineers. Even VE have a hard time seeing the "Spirit Wilds" , and nobody listens to them anyway. Just keep the amount of mutants created by Pentex in a non-ludicrous level, and keep Dune worms inside the Middle Umbra most of the time.
                      Last edited by Aleph; 08-24-2017, 11:49 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                        In Mage Technocracy it's the "antivirus" of the Consensus, they're equiped with whatever they need to fulfil their role. If BSD were a notorious threath, they will be eradicated. As long as they aren't, it's a business for other people.
                        Really? Other than the Pogrom against the Traditions, what else suggests this, and where is it written?
                        To my mind comes Technocracy's attitude towards the Camarilla - non-interference. And I'm not swayed by possible counter-arguments that the Camarilla is somehow aligned to the Technocracy. In discrete ways, yes, but not in major ways - and especially not to the extent of Technocracy not being hostile to them for any other reason than the Technocracy's inability to effectively at least neutralize the Camarilla.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Is it written anywhere when, how, and how often can the Technocracy do this (the nuking from the orbit part) ?
                          Not really? But it's not exactly hard for them to do.

                          Also keep in mind that there's a referential joke here to the movie Aliens (the mission is labelled a bug hunt during the initial briefing before the marines know what they're in for, and the survivors of the initial fight agree to nuke the place from orbit "just to be sure" rather than trying to fight the xenomorphs via infantry tactics).

                          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                          In Mage Technocracy it's the "antivirus" of the Consensus, they're equiped with whatever they need to fulfil their role.
                          That's not really true. This is the role of Paradox (and esp. Paradox spirits). The Technocracy are a faction of mages with their own self-defined goals. They push to maintain the current state of Consensus because it aligns with their interests, not because Consensus demands it.

                          <irony>Yeah, because the colateral damage caused by your average Traditional Chantry it's so much worse than what other supernaturals do every night. Yeah, totally believable</irony>
                          Well, from a Mage perspective it's important because Tradition Chantries are a much greater risk towards the creation of Reality Zones than a vampire killing a human for blood. In the big picture war over the control of Consensus, the damage your average supernatural monster does is less of a problem than what Tradition mages can do if left unchecked.

                          So yes, the overall blindness of the Union to threats like the Wyrm is a flaw for them, it's a completely understandable one.

                          In Werewolf there isn't a risk of being asaulted by armies of sci-fy stuff nor killed from the orbit if you break the veil.
                          Sure there is. It doesn't even have to come from the Union. W20 has a DNA cybertech equivalent Weaver organization that creates Terminators to send after Garou, and governments with full modern military weaponry are aware of the existence of the supernatural who would certainly get hot with those weapons if you start breaking the veil too much.

                          The fact that WtA doesn't even feel the need to have the Union step in to make these things threats says enough in my mind about how big of a threat they'd be.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mercurial View Post
                            If the Technocracy notices a Level 5 Pit and realizes the threat the BSDs pose to the locals, how likely is it that they will unleash an army of magitech wielding terminators on them?
                            Perhaps you might come to better understand the Technocracy's attitude and possible approaches if you read this thread about a possible Technocracy Civil War, and think how each of the factions, detailed by CTPhipps, would act.
                            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ign-idea/page2
                            The Throne, for example, would possibly form some understanding - or even an alliance - with the Princes of Ruin Black Spiral Dancer Tribal Camp.
                            The Foundation would try to neutralize them first and foremost, using the challenge as a test bed for new technologies.
                            Invictus would try to eliminate the Black Spiral Dancer Pit, but with the aim of keeping innocent casualties at a minimum. (How would they act in a possible hostage holding situation?)
                            As you can probably see, there is more to the Technocracy than eliminating the opposition using maximum force.

                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            Not really? But it's not exactly hard for them to do.
                            Really? Where is this written/said?
                            Last edited by Muad'Dib; 08-24-2017, 12:38 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mercurial View Post
                              If the Technocracy notices a Level 5 Pit and realizes the threat the BSDs pose to the locals, how likely is it that they will unleash an army of magitech wielding terminators on them?
                              The probability of using maximum firepower is a slight one I'd say - in my headcanon Technocracy can do so rarely and only against threats who are overt and/or investigated and properly identified over a relatively long period of time (HIT Marks and long-range weaponry have to be aimed and directed etc. et al.). Full force responses by the Technocracy also require specific Conventions and Methodologies to be present, active, and working together.

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