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  • #46
    Moreover, we must always remember that no supernatural conspiracy in the World of Darkness actually controls the governments of the world. To have the level of influence that they can stop this or that from happening would make said conspiracies too big to hide, and too all-powerful to fight. And it's been established that while the Technocracy is powerful, it likes everyone (who knows of it, anyway) to think it is greater, more cohesive, and more influential than it really is.

    Simply put, the Technocracy can't just counter every act of politics they may disagree with. Especially in a western democracy, where there is the presumption of transparency. In the case of Brexit, there was popular enough discourse about the UK leaving the EU that a vote was called for. And the Brexit went through because there was enough popular support for it from the UK's voter base (and/or enough apathy among those who might have opposed it or been ambivalent) to have it go through. If the Technocracy tried to stop the vote or alter the result, it would require a level of interference that might have tipped their hands to the public or regulatory agencies.

    The Union cannot have sleepers at large realizing its existence, so it tends to stay out of high profile democratic processes. Or at least it does so when the processes involve the public directly, rather than elected officials (who, naturally, can be bought and sold with relative impunity).

    Further, the Union may have been just as surprised by Brexit going through as the rest of the world. They didn't think they'd NEED to step in, even if they could or wanted to.


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    • #47
      N-n-n-necro!!!

      Anyway, I've always preferred a kind of weird interpretation of the TU, shameless Technocratic apologist that I am. Namely, that they would be considered paragons of progressive political policy and human rights. Maybe with a few skeletons in their closet, sure, but what organization can exist in some form for 500+ years and not have a few of those? But regardless, the Technocrats would be genuinely some of the most enlightened, progressive, open-minded and forward-thinking people you could possibly want to meet...

      If they had had the good fortune of being born in the real world. Unfortunately, they live in the world of Mage, where all the pie-in-the-sky dreams about faith healing and perpetual motion are actually totally possible. They live in a fantasy world with real world expectation. They're villains because they dismiss outlandish things as "unrealistic" and try to stop them from getting out and "getting everyone's hopes up". Both the Techs and the Trads want the best for humanity, the difference is that the Techs think it's irresponsible and dangerous to rush things and the Trads want it right now!

      So yeah, about as far from "the GOP with hypertech" as you can get, if you don't mind my political leanings coloring my interpretation.

      I also make psionics and about 80% of alien related stuff purely Etherite territory, because to me having them acknowledge stuff like that takes away from their themes of "realistic progress versus childlike enthusiasm and fantasy" and turns it into a slightly more unpleasant (for me) "fun spiritualism versus boring technology". Of course, they get some ET action, because otherwise the Void Engineers would be pretty pointless, but I digress...
      Last edited by The Nilbog; 02-17-2018, 03:00 AM.


      Shameless Technocratic shill.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post
        N-n-n-necro!!!

        Anyway, I've always preferred a kind of weird interpretation of the TU, shameless Technocratic apologist that I am. Namely, that they would be considered paragons of progressive political policy and human rights. Maybe with a few skeletons in their closet, sure, but what organization can exist in some form for 500+ years and not have a few of those? But regardless, the Technocrats would be genuinely some of the most enlightened, progressive, open-minded and forward-thinking people you could possibly want to meet...

        If they had had the good fortune of being born in the real world. Unfortunately, they live in the world of Mage, where all the pie-in-the-sky dreams about faith healing and perpetual motion are actually totally possible. They live in a fantasy world with real world expectation. They're villains because they dismiss outlandish things as "unrealistic" and try to stop them from getting out and "getting everyone's hopes up". Both the Techs and the Trads want the best for humanity, the difference is that the Techs think it's irresponsible and dangerous to rush things and the Trads want it right now!

        So yeah, about as far from "the GOP with hypertech" as you can get, if you don't mind my political leanings coloring my interpretation.
        I don't think Syndicate members I'd meet if they existed IRL would be any of those things, but generally I'd assume the rest would be broadly more progressive. They would majoritively be smug atheist though.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Lian View Post

          I don't think Syndicate members I'd meet if they existed IRL would be any of those things, but generally I'd assume the rest would be broadly more progressive. They would majoritively be smug atheist though.

          True, but I've always gotten the impression that the rest of the Union thinks that way about the Syndicate too and keeps them around as a necessary evil.


          Shameless Technocratic shill.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post


            True, but I've always gotten the impression that the rest of the Union thinks that way about the Syndicate too and keeps them around as a necessary evil.

            I feel like there are poles. "Big Brother is our Friend" and "Hunger drives Innovation!" with syndicate largely at one end even though they hypocrically have no issue with manipulating the market, and the NWO being at the other with the other three having degrees of "Money is a Hastle" and "I'm a post human entity of course I can get whatever I want"

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            • #51
              I guess everyone else found the Atlas Shrugged jokes too obvious to bother with.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Lian View Post


                I feel like there are poles. "Big Brother is our Friend" and "Hunger drives Innovation!" with syndicate largely at one end even though they hypocrically have no issue with manipulating the market, and the NWO being at the other with the other three having degrees of "Money is a Hastle" and "I'm a post human entity of course I can get whatever I want"

                Perhaps, but the social darwinism and classism the Syndies demonstrate is probably not something the rest of the Union is into. I probably don't have to explain why the NWO and the Progs aren't huge fans of it, ItX wants everyone to be a cool immortal machine man and the VE's are too busy fighting for the masses to give philosophies that divide humanity against itself the time of day. Like I said, necessary evil. (And I suspect that even the Syndicate hedge closer to libertarianism than actual honest-to-god neoreactionary social conservatism.)


                Shameless Technocratic shill.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                  If the Technocracy tried to stop the vote or alter the result, it would require a level of interference that might have tipped their hands to the public or regulatory agencies.
                  I think the main worry of Technocrats in such situations is making themselves visible and exposing themselves to, for example, Kindred, Traditions Mages, or Nephandi.
                  Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-17-2018, 04:04 AM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post


                    Perhaps, but the social darwinism and classism the Syndies demonstrate is probably not something the rest of the Union is into. I probably don't have to explain why the NWO and the Progs aren't huge fans of it, ItX wants everyone to be a cool immortal machine man and the VE's are too busy fighting for the masses to give philosophies that divide humanity against itself the time of day. Like I said, necessary evil. (And I suspect that even the Syndicate hedge closer to libertarianism than actual honest-to-god neoreactionary social conservatism.)

                    I don't think the platform is as universal for the progenitors and IX. I think there are probably a signficant amount of Progenitors and Ixers who.. don't give a fuck, who are all in for their personal transcendence into a cool immortal machine, or would have no issue with instituting Brave New World style class system, or who buy into the "We have earned our Technology, I'm not giving it away"

                    So I'd see them hedging towards libertarianism, but have no problem using neoreactionaries to get there.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post


                      I don't think the platform is as universal for the progenitors and IX. I think there are probably a signficant amount of Progenitors and Ixers who.. don't give a fuck, who are all in for their personal transcendence into a cool immortal machine, or would have no issue with instituting Brave New World style class system, or who buy into the "We have earned our Technology, I'm not giving it away"

                      So I'd see them hedging towards libertarianism, but have no problem using neoreactionaries to get there.

                      That definitely does account for some members. That said, in light of the Revised Conbooks, I think the overall party line leans much less in that direction.

                      Regardless, I think the idea of the Union being anti-refugee is pretty ridiculous, bordering on designated villain territory.
                      Last edited by The Nilbog; 02-17-2018, 04:49 AM.


                      Shameless Technocratic shill.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post


                        That definitely does account for some members. That said, in light of the Revised Conbooks, I think the overall party line leans much less in that direction.
                        I'm saying this in light of Revised Progenitors, there is a huge split between the people who want to save the world, the people who have no problem wasting resources making monsters, and those who have "grown up" about money.




                        Regardless, I think the idea of the Union being anti-refugee is pretty ridiculous, bordering on designated villain territory.
                        Well.. the Union are designated villains, maybe not on the Nephandi level and there are shades of grey and nuance and alot of good intentions to them but they are designated villains.

                        Now them being anti-refugee does seem to be fairly inconsistant with their portrayal in the revised books, but the Technocracy has been shown to be more than willing to break ALOT of eggs to make delicious omlets. So while i don't think they'd follow reactionary nationalism(They want the One world Government, they have a Convention called "The New World Order"...) using it as part of a larger plan isn't outside bounds.

                        M20 also sort of wanted to say the Union had been coopted by the Nephandi so.. that too might make sense...

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post

                          Well.. the Union are designated villains, maybe not on the Nephandi level and there are shades of grey and nuance and alot of good intentions to them but they are designated villains.
                          Call me crazy, but I think they can still be antagonists without being designated villains. The trick is to keep them internally consistent and have well-defined boundaries on their goals and methods. Brainwashing Reality Deviants? Sure. Stoking the flames of xenophobia such that innocent sleepers are hurt in the crossfire? That's crossing a line.

                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          M20 also sort of wanted to say the Union had been coopted by the Nephandi so.. that too might make sense...
                          Not huge on that idea. M20 made very few changes to the setting that I liked and that was not one of them.


                          Shameless Technocratic shill.

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                          • #58
                            Also: as of M20, Technocrats aren't even the designated antagonists anymore. Sure, they can be; but there's a reason why the Conventions are specced up in exactly the same way as the Traditions and why the book takes so many pains to enable not just technomancer protagonists, but Technocratic protagonists.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                              Also: as of M20, Technocrats aren't even the designated antagonists anymore. Sure, they can be; but there's a reason why the Conventions are specced up in exactly the same way as the Traditions and why the book takes so many pains to enable not just technomancer protagonists, but Technocratic protagonists.

                              And that definitely was a change I can get behind.


                              Shameless Technocratic shill.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post

                                Call me crazy, but I think they can still be antagonists without being designated villains. The trick is to keep them internally consistent and have well-defined boundaries on their goals and methods. Brainwashing Reality Deviants? Sure. Stoking the flames of xenophobia such that innocent sleepers are hurt in the crossfire? That's crossing a line.

                                [COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=13px]

                                Not huge on that idea. M20 made very few changes to the setting that I liked and that was not one of them.

                                There is a common misconception: that the Technocracy has one policy.

                                Despite the rethoric the Conventions are very different one from another. What is true for the Void engineers is not true for the NWO. Ask a Void Engineers what does he think about NWO, they will probably prefer having buisness with traditions (and they do).

                                There is a wide range of morality, where the Void Engineers are the best guys, Iteration X and the Progenitors stand in the middle, and the NWO and the Syndicate are the worst of the lot, each one for different reasons.

                                Originally posted by The Nilbog View Post

                                Brainwashing Reality Deviants? Sure. Stoking the flames of xenophobia such that innocent sleepers are hurt in the crossfire? That's crossing a line.

                                That's the point. For the Void engineers even the brainwashing part would be bad. And for sure they would not put innocent sleepers on the crossfire, they would find it repulsive. The NWO? Well, that's another story.


                                Even the policy regarding reality deviants is different. For a Void Engineers the Euthanatos are not only not dangerous for mankind, but even allies. On the other side a Vampire in a engineer's eyes is good only for target practice. For a NWO mage an Euthanatos is worst than most, while a vampire could be a political partner.

                                Progenitors view on the Vampires


                                The NWO point of view on vampires is the Technocratic party line: no open hostility as long as they keep their so-called Masquerade up. We… disagree. Looking at the facts should convince any rational scientist that there is no room for leniency. Vampires feed on the Masses. Vampires are not only a contagion, but also a powerful and secret culture. They create through a bodily process a highly addictive substance, known as “vitae.” They’re vectors for mundane plagues. Worst, a sizeable faction does not care for operating in secret, causing as much memetic damage as biological.
                                and then the Syndicate

                                Vampires are interesting case studies. On one hand, they represent functioning anachronism in a microcosm: their secret society is based on feudalism, while they interact with our modern economy. It’s a stable system, one that makes dealing with vampires relatively easy as long as their “Masquerade” is not threatened. On the other hand, some of their longer-lived ilk have entrenched themselves in Consensual economy. Honestly, it’s hard not to respect the power that comes from being able to invest in an institution for decades or even centuries — though don’t mistake that respect for vampiric reverence overall. With those Reality Deviants, we can strike peaceful accords. Money is, after all, the lingua franca of society, and even vampires can value peace and profitable business. With the younger or more rebellious of their kind, though, that’s best left to other Conventions to exterminate. Not that we can’t, but our Enforcers are better served protecting the Bottom Line, and there are a bunch of overzealous Progenitors who would be happy to slaughter brutish leeches.


                                So one should never speak about the Technocracty as ONE entity, that's the party line, in truth they are so different at their core that they are on the verge of civil war.


                                Even the control freak fascist attitude, it depends. Void Engineers and Syndicate are not on that boat. NWO and Progenitors on the other hand...
                                Last edited by Undead rabbit; 02-17-2018, 05:33 PM.

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