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Why the Union does not nuke its enemies from orbit?

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  • Why the Union does not nuke its enemies from orbit?

    Why the Union, especially Conventions like the Iteration X and the Void Engineers do not nuke every Haven, Caern, Pit, Hive, Haunts, Trods and Labyrinth from geostationary orbit? It is the simplest and most efficient and inexpensive(at least in terms of manpower and material losses) method to eradicate Methuselahs, Nephandi, BSD, Unseelie and other vile monstrosities.
    Last edited by Posthumanity; 10-05-2017, 04:47 AM.

  • #2
    Because the bazzlion dollar orbit weapon would explode because of paradox after the first caern.

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    • #3
      Nuking every mystical hotspot on the planet is pretty much *nuking the entire planet*. It's handing the Nephandi the win. As far as the Masses are concerned, it looks like someone's just started a nuclear war.


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by lastlostboy View Post
        Because the bazzlion dollar orbit weapon would explode because of paradox after the first caern.
        The Union can selectively bombard caerns on countrysides, jungles, forests, mountain ranges, oceans, polar regions, and other non-Paradoxical "white zones."
        Last edited by Posthumanity; 10-05-2017, 04:34 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by marin View Post
          Nuking every mystical hotspot on the planet is pretty much *nuking the entire planet*. It's handing the Nephandi the win. As far as the Masses are concerned, it looks like someone's just started a nuclear war.
          Union could nuke sites located outside of the Masses' collective perception. Vast majority of magickal and mystical hotspots and wellsprings are situated in the least populated areas.
          Last edited by Posthumanity; 10-05-2017, 04:26 AM.

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          • #6
            Presumably the same reason the USA doesn't use nukes against ISIS. They tend to kill everything around them and leave the area permanently damaged. The latter is doubly so for the World of Darkness where they tend to blow holes in the Umbra and spiritually poison the local area.

            Also, the Technos aren't monsters (generally). There's a difference between their brand of subtle hypocrisy and blatant mass murder.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Michael View Post
              Presumably the same reason the USA doesn't use nukes against ISIS. They tend to kill everything around them and leave the area permanently damaged. The latter is doubly so for the World of Darkness where they tend to blow holes in the Umbra and spiritually poison the local area.

              Also, the Technos aren't monsters (generally). There's a difference between their brand of subtle hypocrisy and blatant mass murder.
              Even if that "mass murdering atrocity" means eradicating horrible, hideous monsters putting ISIS to shame?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                Union could nuke sites located outside of the Masses' collective perception. Vast majority of magickal and mystical hotspots and wellsprings are in the least populated areas.
                Problem with that reasoning: those spots also tend to be Reality Zones friendly to mysticism, and more hostile to high technology. "Nuking" such spots would be pretty damn Vulgar, even if no one was around to see it.

                That's assuming you even CAN "nuke" an extremely small area, like a single magickal site. I mean yes, the Technocracy could do that. But, again, Vulgar as hell, because nuclear weapons are pretty wide-ranging and indiscriminate in their destruction. This is established in the Consensus. If the Technocracy used extremely localized nukes, that would violate what the Consensus has to say about nuclear weapons. And if by "nuke", you mean employ more exotic kinds of tactical weapons like orbital space lasers, that's EVEN MORE VULGAR than actual nukes, because orbital space lasers are not a thing that exists (yet).


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                • #9
                  Actually, I'm not done. Let's continue, because there's so much wrong with this idea.

                  Let's set aside the fact that most vampires Haven in cities, where orbital death rays blowing up buildings would definitely be noticed. Let's set aside the fact that Caerns are Nodes in everything but name, and the Technocracy would much rather take that resource for themselves, rather than damage it. Let's set aside that Trods are a Changeling thing, and most of the Union is skeptical that fairies even exist, let alone that they're a problem worth worrying about. Let's set aside that blowing up every haunted house or murder site is going to get noticed, and not all of those happen in remote areas. Let's set aside that Nephandi put a hell of a lot of effort into their Labyrinths, and may have wards against spells/technomagic of mass destruction. And let's certainly set aside that the Union, unless it investigates and infiltrates, has no idea what's in any of these places, and what or who might be caught in the blast radius.

                  Let's set ALL OF THAT aside, and just examine the biggest reason why the Union doesn't nuke all its problems from orbit: it doesn't know where most of these places are, or even always WHAT they are.

                  Night Folk a secretive by nature. They are basically a series of conspiracies that encompass entire species unto themselves. Like all good conspiracies, they seek to avoid being known as much as possible. Protecting their own versions of the Masquerade is constant with basically all of them, because they don't want to be found.

                  Which means in a vast majority of cases, the Union has to work hard to find any of the sites mentioned, let alone ALL of them. The Union isn't even fully aware of how many vampires are running around - they underestimate their numbers. How would they know how many Havens are in a particular city, or where they are? Vast amounts of time and resources could be - and are - spent looking for individual sites significant to Reality Deviants. It's why the Traditions haven't been wiped off the face of the earth yet.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                    Even if that "mass murdering atrocity" means eradicating horrible, hideous monsters putting ISIS to shame?
                    Well, it's context dependant. In-setting the Technocracy did in fact use nuclear weapons against the Ravnos Antediluvian. So if the threat is big enough they will use them.

                    But bear in mind the Technocracy already defeated the Nephandi and they probably think about the Nephandi in those terms. Why use weapons that murder thousands of innocent people when your foe is basically already defeated. Things might be different if the Technocracy were presently in an open war with the Nephandi.

                    Also, as I said, the Technocracy runs on secrecy and hypocrisy. If the higher ups start blatantly committing massive atrocities then the foot-soldiers of the Union are going to get rebellious.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michael View Post

                      Well, it's context dependant. In-setting the Technocracy did in fact use nuclear weapons against the Ravnos Antediluvian. So if the threat is big enough they will use them.

                      But bear in mind the Technocracy already defeated the Nephandi and they probably think about the Nephandi in those terms. Why use weapons that murder thousands of innocent people when your foe is basically already defeated. Things might be different if the Technocracy were presently in an open war with the Nephandi.

                      Also, as I said, the Technocracy runs on secrecy and hypocrisy. If the higher ups start blatantly committing massive atrocities then the foot-soldiers of the Union are going to get rebellious.
                      But why bombarding isolated, depopulated(or non-habitat) area causes thousands of innocent death? Such indiscriminate carnage occurs when you nuke cities.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                        But why bombarding isolated, depopulated(or non-habitat) area causes thousands of innocent death? Such indiscriminate carnage occurs when you nuke cities.
                        I suppose they could in that case. That's just generally not where the monsters tend to gather; or to be exact, it's not where the monsters the Technocracy cares about are.

                        I mean, a sleeping methuselah is extremely dangerous, but if it's asleep in some tomb in the middle of nowhere, who cares? The Technocracy has more pressing issues to deal with, and only limited resources.

                        One other thing that I just realised. Your point about it being efficient is not quite right. The Technocrats are going to have to cover up the detonation which is going to be quite a bit of work, there's a lot of sleeper infrastructure designed to detect nuclear weapons. It's certainly doable, but it's still not something you do idly.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          Why the Union, especially Conventions like the Iteration X and the Void Engineers do not nuke every Haven, Caern, Pit, Hive, Haunts, Trods and Labyrinth from geostationary orbit? It is the simplest and most efficient and inexpensive(at least in terms of manpower and material losses) method to eradicate Methuselahs, Nephandi, BSD, Unseelie and other vile monstrosities.
                          Blueecho covered it pretty well.
                          - First they even need to know where said secretive lair is.
                          - Then they have to consider what is around it and what side-effects bombing it would have.
                          - Then one might consider defenses or reactions to this activity. Some Methuselah (given I only know Vampire mechanics well) might survive a strike given the circumstances.

                          Also, correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't the Sixth Great Maelstrom caused by a technocrat blowing up a nuke in a Labyrinth?

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                          • #14
                            IIRC it was caused by the combination of a Primally Charged nuke destroying the avatars of those caught in the radius when they bombed the Ravnos antidilluvian. and an Etherite experimenting with nukes in the Umbra.

                            In any case the answer is because none of these things are actually a threat. While the Traditions might view the union as their enemies in a great war for reality, the Union views all superstionists as the broken remnants of a defeated age.

                            Their current operation isn't a war. They'd have to have a serious opponent for that. They view it as much closer to pest control or police work than anything else.
                            Last edited by Enginseer-42; 10-05-2017, 11:17 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post

                              I suppose they could in that case. That's just generally not where the monsters tend to gather; or to be exact, it's not where the monsters the Technocracy cares about are.

                              I mean, a sleeping methuselah is extremely dangerous, but if it's asleep in some tomb in the middle of nowhere, who cares? The Technocracy has more pressing issues to deal with, and only limited resources.

                              One other thing that I just realised. Your point about it being efficient is not quite right. The Technocrats are going to have to cover up the detonation which is going to be quite a bit of work, there's a lot of sleeper infrastructure designed to detect nuclear weapons. It's certainly doable, but it's still not something you do idly.
                              And that's dancing around the bigger issue, which is that orbital space weapons would not be cheap to create and put into position. The Technocracy may have Magical Science, but their Paradigm is also beholden to Magical Economics. Because, remember, they have an entire Convention devoted to that.

                              The Technocracy's brand of engineering skews more towards the realistic when it comes to logistics, material and labor costs, and other factors. It isn't like the Society of Ether, who can produce war zeppelins or moon lasers, using nothing but junk and elbow grease. Building anything for the Union is an industrial project. Which tend to be expensive.

                              Imagine for a moment that, in the Real World(TM), the US government had access to functional, practical laser weaponry. And that, with enough work and research, they could realize that type of weaponry on a massive scale. Let's say, further, that they could put one of those weapons in orbit.

                              Are you really telling me that such a project would be cheap? That kind of thing would require a few billion dollars appended to the already bloated US defense budget bare minimum. Not even counting how many billions were spent beforehand in research and development. Actually building a space laser and rocketing it into orbit would cost, if I may borrow a British term, Loadsofmoney.

                              THAT is how the Technocracy does things, because they need to wrap their technomagick in a veneer of plausibility. Not even that, they legitimately believe that's how things must be done. It's part of the Union's collective Paradigm: technological answers to problems scale in expense to the scale of the problem. Which is why the Union doesn't have a legion of laser and nuke equipped satellites orbiting the Earth, no matter how much they might want one. And why they don't blow these kinds of weapon on any old nest of Reality Deviants.

                              In this case, a strike team really is the more efficient method of dealing with such problems.


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