Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questions about Union Policy

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Questions about Union Policy

    1. Why the Union does not simply kidnap, clone and replace important figures such as presidents and prime ministers?

    2. Why the Union does not wage total war against vampires?

    3. Why the Union does not send its army to global hot zones in guise of government interference?

    4. Does the Union capture and brainwash night-folk other than Mage?

  • #2
    Why the Union does not simply kidnap, clone and replace important figures such as presidents and prime ministers?
    In the old days they did, nowdays they do not do this. It's a policy about "sleepers controling the world". More to the point, however, it was ludicrous and unnecessary: Technocrats made the modern world, Democracy was tested in a Horizon Realm before released to the masses and tested against other forms of political power. Why would them compromise their own social experiment?. If they NEED to change president they can do that, they're always close to the president, but that would imply that the president it's doing something that goes against Technocratic agenda, and that shouldn't happen.

    Why the Union does not wage total war against vampires?
    Because vampires are something that's going to solve itself when Technocracy controls the Consensus because Consensus it's Reality. Or so most mages believe, why would the strategy that worked so well against dragons fail against vampires?. Vampires hidde themselves, and because of that they're contributing to their own eventual extermination in the minds of Technocrats. Technocrats may be wrong about this but they don't know better. Priority 1º it's to control the Consensus, priority 2º it's tying loose ends

    Why the Union does not send its army to global hot zones in guise of government interference?
    They totally do, it's just that they send it against magical treaths. Mind you, if they NEED to send an army to global cold zones they totally can, it's just harder to hide.

    Does the Union capture and brainwash night-folk other than Mage?
    Yes and no. It's certainly possible and there is data about captured night-folk (including xenotransplants), but Mage doesn't deal much with the other Splats and so you don't see the "dangerous cyberwolf opperative" that believes Control it's Gaia.

    Comment


    • #3
      How involved other Splats are with the Technocracy is a sliding scale. You can go one extreme and say that the Vamps are so good at hiding that even the top top members of the Technocracy isn't aware of them, that werewolves are seen as no different from other spirits and thus something for the Engineers to focus on, and there is no real reason for a Technocrat to ever encounter a Wraith or a Fae, and thus it is never encountered.

      You can instead go the other extreme and the Syndicate working arm in arm with Pentex or even employing a large number of Glass Walkers. Making deals with a number of old generation Vamps in order to assist in covering up any evidence in exchange for information and other services. A number of high officials already making arangements with certain groups in Stygia to keep an eye on areas where the veil is weak.
      The official word may be that such creature simply do not exist, but all of this is on a need to know basis.

      How rampant this is would be up to you. The Union is many layered and often shrouded in bureaucratic secrecy. Not only does the right hand not know what the left hand is doing, but the thumb can't keep track of the fingers.


      Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
        1. Why the Union does not simply kidnap, clone and replace important figures such as presidents and prime ministers?
        Because the Union knows that whatever utility could be derived from that plan doesn't outweigh the risk of discovery when the switch is made. The leaders of major countries especially are heavily observed public figures. The President of the United States is surrounded by aides, cabinet officials, and Secret Service guards at all times.

        The amount of work and resources the Union would need to use to make the switch without being discovered rises to levels that make it not worth the effort. Assuming they even could without being discovered. Remember, also, that many government heads in the modern world are elected officials, who'll leave office in a few short years anyway. Why bother go to the expense? Especially since sudden policy changes will attract attention? The Technocracy is far better off controlling the apparatus of government from the shadows, rather than trying to fully dominate individuals.

        2. Why the Union does not wage total war against vampires?
        Why would they? As far as the Union knows, Vampires are a vanishing minority that will, in time, either die out or be mopped up easily later, when the Union has created its utopia. Moreover, Vampires are "model Reality Deviants", who stay on their best behavior and police themselves. They have just as much - if not more - a vested interest in maintaining the Consensus as the Technocracy does. Simply put, while their...dietary requirements may be unsavory, and their powers may be quite Deviant, they are ultimately a low priority for the Union. As far as the Technocracy is concerned, it's a problem that can be placed on the back burner until all the more pressing concerns are dealt with. Concerns like the Traditions, who actively work against the vision of Reality the Union seeks to foster.

        Granted, also, the Vampires are excellent at hiding. The Union, for as good as they claim its surveillance network is, doesn't really know how many Vampires are running around. If they did have an accurate view of their numbers - and if they did know how close this "Masquerade" has come to falling - the Union might take the threat more seriously. But they don't, because they are working with incomplete information. It's the same reason why the Technocracy doesn't wage war against Pentex: it isn't aware just how thoroughly that corporation has been infested and dominated by a hostile alien presence, bent on the world's destruction.

        3. Why the Union does not send its army to global hot zones in guise of government interference?
        The public tends to be critical of government interference as a matter of course. If the Union arranges for this sort of thing to happen - in and of itself not a trivial matter, getting governments to involve themselves when and where you want them - it attracts public attention to that same area. More attention, indeed, because supernatural groups (like, for instance, the Taftani) know enough about how the Union operates to see any such governmental interference as a potential Technocrat smokescreen. So while the public forces of government might cover the Union against the public (another big assumption), the ones they will often fight against see it as the smoke that signals fire. Instead of masking their presence, the Union may very well have tipped their enemies off.

        4. Does the Union capture and brainwash night-folk other than Mage?
        Seems like more trouble than it's worth. Especially since supernatural creatures - like werewolves and vampires - will often have strong wills, making it harder to pull off.

        And, again, the Union underestimates how heavily the world is infested with Reality Deviants. To them, lycanthropes and hemovores are endangered species, on their way out. While there might be some utility to be wrought from turning them into agents, I would say it costs more time and resources than is worth it. Especially since they have legions of Extraordinary Citizens willing to undergo cybernetic or genetic modification, if the Union wanted empowered agents. Even if a vampire or werewolf is more powerful than five unAwakened mortals with Enhancements, those five mortals are far more willing to work with the Union, and can be distributed more flexibly than the single night-folk.

        Hell, "more powerful than five mortals" is an academic assumption, not taking into account that the five mortals have the advantage of numbers. Simply have a greater action economy puts the night-folk on the back foot; even if the Vampire uses Celerity or the Werewolf Rages, they'll at best have as many actions a round as the five mortals, and then not continually. And that further assumes the mortals don't have Enhancements that give them more actions.

        To avoid getting us bogged down in discussions of mechanics and edge cases, this is the sort of ballpark we're looking at. Where the Union will likely get just about as much value from using their own methods to make better agents and weapons, and at much less cost or hassle than if they tried to brainwash other night-folk to their cause.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
          3. Why the Union does not send its army to global hot zones in guise of government interference?
          I wouldn't say that the Technocracy has an army. They can and they do send Amalgams and Sympathizers to hot zones to accomplish various aims; Technocrats and Technocracy's agents placed in a military's chain of command can also help accomplish the Technocracy's goals in regards to a place.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bluecho
            Seems like more trouble than it's worth.
            Another reason I can imagine, albeit it may sound weird, would be because of their ideology.

            Technocrats don't just abduct mages, they force the mages to adopt the new, correct, Paradigm. NWO even sees this as a kind of mercy, the other option would be to kill them...Vampires and others can't be "converted to the right Paradigm", their powers are static. They don't choose to be deviants, they are a walking deviance. Vampires won't overcome their beast and it's urges with simple magick, and so, until they can be cured (from being a vampire), they will always be "wrong" for the Technocratical standard. While vampires may be able to operate under Static Reality, they don't operate the way Technocrats would want them to, and thus they can never be a part of the Union.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              Because vampires are something that's going to solve itself when Technocracy controls the Consensus because Consensus it's Reality. Or so most mages believe, why would the strategy that worked so well against dragons fail against vampires?. Vampires hidde themselves, and because of that they're contributing to their own eventual extermination in the minds of Technocrats. Technocrats may be wrong about this but they don't know better. Priority 1º it's to control the Consensus, priority 2º it's tying loose ends.
              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
              Why would they? As far as the Union knows, Vampires are a vanishing minority that will, in time, either die out or be mopped up easily later, when the Union has created its utopia. Moreover, Vampires are "model Reality Deviants", who stay on their best behavior and police themselves. They have just as much - if not more - a vested interest in maintaining the Consensus as the Technocracy does. Simply put, while their...dietary requirements may be unsavory, and their powers may be quite Deviant, they are ultimately a low priority for the Union. As far as the Technocracy is concerned, it's a problem that can be placed on the back burner until all the more pressing concerns are dealt with. Concerns like the Traditions, who actively work against the vision of Reality the Union seeks to foster.

              Granted, also, the Vampires are excellent at hiding. The Union, for as good as they claim its surveillance network is, doesn't really know how many Vampires are running around. If they did have an accurate view of their numbers - and if they did know how close this "Masquerade" has come to falling - the Union might take the threat more seriously. But they don't, because they are working with incomplete information. It's the same reason why the Technocracy doesn't wage war against Pentex: it isn't aware just how thoroughly that corporation has been infested and dominated by a hostile alien presence, bent on the world's destruction.
              If Camarilla is the single existing Vampire faction, that would be true.

              But there is Sabbat, the most monstrous of monsters. And both Sets are clearly present and kicking around in MtA.

              How the Union could ignore the Sabbat and its flagrant, egregious dismissal of Consensus and the Masses? They are certainly aware of its existence and activities. And Union is doubtlessly active in the Sabbat-controlled cities and countries. Why the Union does not conduct drone strike against areas of Southern America slums or bathe it with quasi-sunlight?
              Last edited by Posthumanity; 11-04-2017, 10:34 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post


                If Camarilla is the single existing Vampire faction, that would be true.

                But there is Sabbat, the most monstrous of monsters. And both Sets are clearly present and kicking around in MtA.

                How the Union could ignore the Sabbat and its flagrant, egregious dismissal of Consensus and the Masses? They are certainly aware of its existence and activities. And Union is doubtlessly active in the Sabbat-controlled cities and countries. Why the Union does not conduct drone strike against areas of Southern America slums or bathe it with quasi-sunlight?
                Why doesn't the Technocracy engage in drone strikes against South American population centers?

                Gee, I don't know. It can't be because that would cause massive international incidents that couldn't be hidden if you tried. Because obviously the Technocracy is completely omnipotent and capable of perfectly hiding everything.

                In all seriousness, while the Sabbat is looser with the Masquerade, they still grudgingly protect it (if only because they know they aren't strong enough (yet) to overthrow mortal society and put the kine in their proper place). Much as the sect mocks the Camarilla for its fixation on appearing human, the Sabbat know that true predators don't want their prey knowing they're there. Which means covering up supernatural stuff.

                Granted, the Sabbat version of a cover-up involves plenty of murder, but it gets the job done. Barely. So long as things don't look supernatural, neither the Sabbat nor the Technocracy care much about what the Sabbat does. If a few dozen bodies or thousands in property damage get dropped on a city from time to time, that's fine. Societal disfunction is, sadly, well within the Consensus.

                There's also entire factions within the Sabbat - like the Lasombra Kings and Queens of Night - that are devoted to dealing with the mortals. And that means somewhere, a beleagered Lasombra neonate is running himself ragged plugging holes in the Masquerade, paying off (or blackmailing or dominating) witnesses and authority figures, and generally keeping things this side of the line between order and complete madness.

                One last thing to consider: the Sabbat isn't a cohesive hierarchy, but a series of loosely connected cells. Any given pack is unlikely to know much about most other packs in the world. While this blunts their ability to organize, it also means that for every pack that gets caught, ten more go under the radar. For each one that attracts the Union's attention, ten more engage in atrocity while also keeping a lid on them (at least from a supernatural standpoint).

                So here's a question: why are you assuming the Union is even aware that the Sabbat is a whole sect at all, rather than a series of isolated groups that arise every so often? Vampires don't volunteer information about their kind or their political affiliations. For all the Union knows, getting together and forming packs is some kind of natural inclination for hemovores. Maybe signifying a different, more feral species to the largely solitary variety that likes to pretend to be human in order to blend in. And since these packs of hemovores seem to clean up after themselves (after a fashion), the occasional indiscretion isn't as much to worry about. Even these feral leeches seem to understand the value of hiding what they are, thereby contributing to the Consensus.

                Naturally, this assumes that the Union is ignorant of the full extent of the problem, or what the Tzimisce do behind closed doors (and how often they do it). If the Union had the sort of perfect knowledge of the Sabbat that we readers do, they'd see the sect as a much greater threat than it already is. But the World of Darkness is a place founded on ignorance - a place where every conspiracy keeps its cards close to its chest - and so the Union does not have perfect knowledge. All they can tell is that deranged hemovores sometimes get into groups and cause mayhem. The Sabbat's scattered, loose confederation ironically works in its favor when it comes to the Union, who won't as readily see the forest for the trees, and thus underestimates the problem.


                Comment


                • #9
                  NWO, the designated leader of the Union, know there are Camarilla, Sabbat and other Sects of Vampires, feed information to relevant parties, keep tabs one them and clearly spying them 24/7 through whatever means(I imagine captured, Processed and Conditioned Vampire sleeper agents), and very likely possess Book of Nod. That much is explicitly stated in their CB.

                  The rumormongering among the vampires of an end of days, of a time when their legends rise up, has come and passed without incident. To be honest, that comes as a bit of a surprise, as the Statisticians calculated catastrophe in line with their prophecies. There is no open hostility between vampires and the Technocracy. They are content to keep to their “Masquerade,” and we are content to let them. Given our manpower issues, we’re thankful not to have to police two different groups of Reality Deviants that wish to work in the open. Recently, the Collegia have settled the matter of Clan Tremere, vampires who work some form of blood magic. While there is still debate over theory regarding why their magic does not violate the stability of reality (most likely due to humanity’s latent belief in vampires, reinforced by the surge of vampires in popular media), the fact that it doesn’t makes the debate over reasons a moot point. As a threat, they have been downgraded as not worth the additional manpower, since they respect the Masquerade and do not risk Sleeper exposure. The Sabbat — a faction of vampires that does not concern itself with secrecy — is a potential thorn in our side, however. For now, the Sabbat vampires’ struggle with the other vampire factions is a self-policing measure with which we’re satisfied. Still, we keep tabs on the sect’s movements, so as to feed that information to... relevant parties.
                  They say the Sabbat's war with other factions is functioning as a self-policing measure, but if MtA Vampires are same creatures as VtM, it is an utterly ridiculous, misguided notion. And considering the sheer depth and breadth of NWO's knowledge(they even have awarence of Tremere and nature of its Thaumaturgy - which OoH did not before the Second Massasa War) and simple fact that there are many cities controlled by Sabbat (especially in South America) and so-called "Cainites" rampaging with impunity and causing enormous social, political and memetic problems in those areas, it is going to be improbable if the Union do not target hemovores first and Tradition second in the Sabbat-contaminated zones.

                  In those areas, Sabbat are the paramount threat against Consensus, direr than EDE or Werecreature incursions, and surpassing even the Marauders and Nephandi in its severity. And in South America, complete eradication of Sabbat should be the Union's top priority. And since the Sabbat's wealth and social clout is vastly insignificant compared to Camarilla, Cainites are significantly easier to exterminate than Kindred - just firebomb the vile hemovores dens, dungeons and havens with incendiaries and purge the abominations with cleansing flame.

                  And even if the Union as whole is blind at sheer scope of Sabbat activities, its institutional contempt to the humanity, generalized disregard of Masquerade, incorrigibly chaotic nature, unequivocal monstrosity will surely cause tremendous revulsion and disgust to local Amalgams and duly warrant retributions with extreme prejudge.
                  Last edited by Posthumanity; 11-05-2017, 03:19 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, if you're looking at the crossover information in such a way then the Sabbat are less powerful in that part of the world than they are through a purely VTM lense. South America is one of the last havens of the Fera (who really don't like vampires pissing in their pool) and also the location of some major Werewolf war zones to boot. The Sabbat have a lot more to worry about when their are packs of Bonegnawers, Glasswalkers and Uktena active in and around Mexico City not to forget the Bastet, Mokole and maybe even Naga that may well have gotten caught up in matters (especially in a place where the Masquerade is practically ignored then the Veil is a lot more flexible).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                      NWO, the designated leader of the Union, know there are Camarilla, Sabbat and other Sects of Vampires, feed information to relevant parties, keep tabs one them and clearly spying them 24/7 through whatever means(I imagine captured, Processed and Conditioned Vampire sleeper agents), and very likely possess Book of Nod. That much is explicitly stated in their CB.



                      They say the Sabbat's war with other factions is functioning as a self-policing measure, but if MtA Vampires are same creatures as VtM, it is an utterly ridiculous, misguided notion. And considering the sheer depth and breadth of NWO's knowledge(they even have awarence of Tremere and nature of its Thaumaturgy - which OoH did not before the Second Massasa War) and simple fact that there are many cities controlled by Sabbat (especially in South America) and so-called "Cainites" rampaging with impunity and causing enormous social, political and memetic problems in those areas, it is going to be improbable if the Union do not target hemovores first and Tradition second in the Sabbat-contaminated zones.

                      In those areas, Sabbat are the paramount threat against Consensus, direr than EDE or Werecreature incursions, and surpassing even the Marauders and Nephandi in its severity. And in South America, complete eradication of Sabbat should be the Union's top priority. And since the Sabbat's wealth and social clout is vastly insignificant compared to Camarilla, Cainites are significantly easier to exterminate than Kindred - just firebomb the vile hemovores dens, dungeons and havens with incendiaries and purge the abominations with cleansing flame.

                      And even if the Union as whole is blind at sheer scope of Sabbat activities, its institutional contempt to the humanity, generalized disregard of Masquerade, incorrigibly chaotic nature, unequivocal monstrosity will surely cause tremendous revulsion and disgust to local Amalgams and duly warrant retributions with extreme prejudge.
                      First of all, you have to take into account how those books work. It doesn't mean that the NWO knows something. It means that someone at NWO knows something. Also, it isn't clear the extend of such knowledge. Just because they think they know it all, it doesn't mean they really do. This doesn't make clear in any way, as an example, that they spy on the Sabbat 24/7, that was your guess.

                      Knowing about the Tremere also means nothing. They could either have kept better registers about old House Tremere and its end, or simply have found some by happenstance. I would lean to the later, since this guy seems to ignore the origins of the Tremere, as much as the several other variants of blood magic out there, like Koldunism.

                      About the problems the Sabbat causes in South America, you forget that those statements are likewise made by unreliable witnesses. As much as the Sabbat causes trouble here in the setting, it isn't so obviously supernatural as you think, nor is it nearly so widespread as USA's hearsay paints it. Not to say that it isn't a fraction of the simple process you seems to think it is. The Sabbat does have wealth and social clout, just not in the same places. They are as hard to find in general as any other vampire, and they also live in cities. You can't simply firebomb their dens more than you can simply firebomb NYC.

                      You can look for other threads on the matter of all-out-war among splats, but it isn't nearly as easy as it seems, specially when things start to escalate.

                      In the end, it is a matter of logistics, cost and goal. A war against the Sabbat would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It would cost too much resources, weaken the Union against their enemies, and probably hurt the Consensus far more than just letting them go. The Union seems omnipotent, but they actually have, as everyone else, their resources spread thin. Every move is a cost, and must be measured against its benefits. At all sides they have potential enemies and opportunistic parties that can and will act as flexibly as them. They are fighting a war against an organization whose sole purpose is to take down the Consensus, among with several loose groups of independent Deviants with similar goals of control of local Paradigm. Just think about how those main enemies could capitalize this kind of war. And how the other Deviants will react? A group that suddenly moves the force needed to wipe the Sabbat in such a short time would attract attention from several other parties, and they aren't likely to simply think the Technocrats are harmless pacifist while they commit supernatural genocide.


                      Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        About the problems the Sabbat causes in South America, you forget that those statements are likewise made by unreliable witnesses. As much as the Sabbat causes trouble here in the setting, it isn't so obviously supernatural as you think, nor is it nearly so widespread as USA's hearsay paints it.
                        In the real world, perhaps. But this is the World of Darkness, and South America is a literal hellhole, thanks to ceaseless efforts of Sabbat. And I do not live USA and English is not my native.

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        Not to say that it isn't a fraction of the simple process you seems to think it is. The Sabbat does have wealth and social clout, just not in the same places. They are as hard to find in general as any other vampire, and they also live in cities. You can't simply firebomb their dens more than you can simply firebomb NYC.
                        Firebomb NYC and firebomb obscured dens of Mexico slums is definitely not the same thing. It cannot be equated. And I have never read or heard Sabbat having wealth and social clout rivaling that of Camarilla, let alone Technocracy.

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        You can look for other threads on the matter of all-out-war among splats, but it isn't nearly as easy as it seems, specially when things start to escalate.
                        Is there any the Union-Sabbat total war threads?

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        In the end, it is a matter of logistics, cost and goal. A war against the Sabbat would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. It would cost too much resources, weaken the Union against their enemies, and probably hurt the Consensus far more than just letting them go.
                        It is definitely not a Pyrrhic victory. Letting Sabbat inflict far more damage to Consensus in long term than eradicate them from face of the Earth.

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        The Union seems omnipotent, but they actually have, as everyone else, their resources spread thin. Every move is a cost, and must be measured against its benefits. At all sides they have potential enemies and opportunistic parties that can and will act as flexibly as them..
                        So do Sabbat, in fact, even more so than the Union. And Sabbat hardly possess reliable resources as an institution. It is more like a collective of packs than a veritable organization.

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        They are fighting a war against an organization whose sole purpose is to take down the Consensus, among with several loose groups of independent Deviants with similar goals of control of local Paradigm. Just think about how those main enemies could capitalize this kind of war.
                        Since 2000, that is more like occasional skirmishes and brushfire rather than all-out conflict, and both parties are cooperating as frequently as clashing. And if the Union choose to take down Sabbat, I bet Tradition and other (sane) mage groups are going to support the Union, if not openly cooperate.

                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        And how the other Deviants will react? A group that suddenly moves the force needed to wipe the Sabbat in such a short time would attract attention from several other parties, and they aren't likely to simply think the Technocrats are harmless pacifist while they commit supernatural genocide.
                        It would be more appropriate supernatural pest control than genocide. No one will lament extermination of Sabbat or give succor to them. And no one will consider the Union as "harmless pacifist". Remember, it is at war with every other supernatural denizens in WoD,

                        And that is the case if we assume other Deviants have a scant of credible knowledge regarding the Union. Despite its policy, there are very few, if any, other Deviants groups and factions have inkling of existence of the Union and true scope its power, reach and influence with possible exception of Marauders, Nephandi and Pentex.

                        Even if they hear rumors about Technocracy, they will dismiss "mage shadow government" as false delusion, vamphiric paranoia, or worse, outright disinformation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          In the real world, perhaps. But this is the World of Darkness, and South America is a literal hellhole, thanks to ceaseless efforts of Sabbat. And I do not live USA and English is not my native.
                          I wasn't talking about you, but about the books proper. WoD is all written from an in-setting perspective. It includes the use of a writing technique called Unreliable Narrator. Basically, the fluff is always described through the perspective of an in-setting character. As much as this character is certainly very knowledgeable, the narrative is still colored by its perspectives and intentions. That is greatly used to explain discrepancies between books both in distinct lines and, sometimes, in the same line.

                          With that in mind, american hearsay have much to tell about descriptions from other places. Not because the reader is american, nor because the writer is american, but because the fictional narrator is.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          Firebomb NYC and firebomb obscured dens of Mexico slums is definitely not the same thing. It cannot be equated. And I have never read or heard Sabbat having wealth and social clout rivaling that of Camarilla, let alone Technocracy.
                          Sabbat vampires don't live in obscured dens of Mexico slums. At least not only. They live spread in cities much like any other vampire. Also, the obscure dens are still located inside a city. NYC also have slums of its own, and obscure dens. By the way, it was a Sabbat stronghold for quite some time. To firebomb those places is still to be seen firebombing buildings seemingly at random. For a better example, though, you could easily substitute NYC for Detroit.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          Is there any the Union-Sabbat total war threads?
                          Probably, but either way there are other total war threads where you can find information on hundreds of opinions from the forums about those things, including at least a dozen about Tech vs Sabbat. This isn't the firs, second, or even tenth time. Nothing against it, though, its just that you can find a lot more about this in older threads.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          It is definitely not a Pyrrhic victory. Letting Sabbat inflict far more damage to Consensus in long term than eradicate them from face of the Earth.
                          Assuming they will one day both win over Camarilla, win over their ancients, prove they are right, survive their own victory and start to act true to what they say. It is fairly unlikely that it all will happen in the next centuries, unless Gehenna actually happens, and then the Sabbat will still be the lesser problem.

                          Until them, the sheer amount of resources the Union would have to apply to truly obliterate the Sabbat, assuming it even possible, would render it easy prey to the Traditions, make them target for other supernaturals en masse, and probably harm the Consensus far more in the display of pure power that will ensue, since not only they will have to bring the big guns, but the Sabbat elders around the world will answer in kind.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          So do Sabbat, in fact, even more so than the Union. And Sabbat hardly possess reliable resources as an institution. It is more like a collective of packs than a veritable organization.
                          First, I don't thing that the Sabbat would have things so thinly spread, but it isn't relevant. Any group targeted for annihilation will quickly have a huge priority on survival. Winning a local war is a simple matter. Complete extermination is far more hard to pull out. The toll it will have on the Sabbat isn't really relevant unless they survive in the end. The toll in the Union resources is the thing here.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          Since 2000, that is more like occasional skirmishes and brushfire rather than all-out conflict, and both parties are cooperating as frequently as clashing. And if the Union choose to take down Sabbat, I bet Tradition and other (sane) mage groups are going to support the Union, if not openly cooperate.
                          A series of circumstances brought this relative peace, but the sudden weakening of the Union would certainly change those circumstances drastically. Also, most Tradition Mages don't actually have all that interest on bringing down the Sabbat, even if they know of them. A passing interest, maybe. But not to the point of committing nearly as many resources to it. The Consensus is still their worst enemy, and an opportunity to take down the Union wouldn't be passed so lightly.

                          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                          It would be more appropriate supernatural pest control than genocide. No one will lament extermination of Sabbat or give succor to them. And no one will consider the Union as "harmless pacifist". Remember, it is at war with every other supernatural denizens in WoD,

                          And that is the case if we assume other Deviants have a scant of credible knowledge regarding the Union. Despite its policy, there are very few, if any, other Deviants groups and factions have inkling of existence of the Union and true scope its power, reach and influence with possible exception of Marauders, Nephandi and Pentex.

                          Even if they hear rumors about Technocracy, they will dismiss "mage shadow government" as false delusion, vamphiric paranoia, or worse, outright disinformation.
                          Short story: virtually every house in the planet get a cockroach infestation from time to time. To this, we call on pest control. In a city next to mine, something interesting happened. People first stopped calling pest control and started to apply pesticides by themselves. Then, they thought it a good idea to apply the pesticides not only in their homes, but on the sewers, so to get total extermination of cockroaches.

                          In the next summer, attacks by Yellow Scorpions got so common that the medical services couldn't handle the sheer number of poisoned people. Luckily, it isn't a lethal poison, mind you, but it was a huge health problem nonetheless. What happened was that scorpions eat cockroaches, and without them in the sewers they started to get out in numbers.

                          Complete annihilation of a role in the ecosystem isn't Pest Control. It causes problems. The Sabbat isn't dearly loved by many, so it isn't likely they will get much help. But they still have a niche that will be greatly disturbed. And the Union's display of destruction and disregard for them will certainly stand up. In the same vein that in NWO book the Union shows knowledge of the Sabbat, do not dismiss so quickly the other splats on having some knowledge of the Union. They do.

                          As much as it is true that this knowledge isn't great or common, you're talking about a huge display of destruction. Other denizens of the shadows are guaranteed to notice this. Secrecy comes with subtlety, and extermination isn't subtle at all. Not even the relationship between the Fera and the Wyrm goes to such extreme, and the times it went in the past are remembered as having dread consequences. The Union will become the most obvious and instant target of the world, since no one knows any reason for them not to direct the same unbound violence upon others.


                          Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            Short story: virtually every house in the planet get a cockroach infestation from time to time. To this, we call on pest control. In a city next to mine, something interesting happened. People first stopped calling pest control and started to apply pesticides by themselves. Then, they thought it a good idea to apply the pesticides not only in their homes, but on the sewers, so to get total extermination of cockroaches.

                            In the next summer, attacks by Yellow Scorpions got so common that the medical services couldn't handle the sheer number of poisoned people. Luckily, it isn't a lethal poison, mind you, but it was a huge health problem nonetheless. What happened was that scorpions eat cockroaches, and without them in the sewers they started to get out in numbers.

                            Complete annihilation of a role in the ecosystem isn't Pest Control. It causes problems. The Sabbat isn't dearly loved by many, so it isn't likely they will get much help. But they still have a niche that will be greatly disturbed. And the Union's display of destruction and disregard for them will certainly stand up. In the same vein that in NWO book the Union shows knowledge of the Sabbat, do not dismiss so quickly the other splats on having some knowledge of the Union. They do.

                            As much as it is true that this knowledge isn't great or common, you're talking about a huge display of destruction. Other denizens of the shadows are guaranteed to notice this. Secrecy comes with subtlety, and extermination isn't subtle at all. Not even the relationship between the Fera and the Wyrm goes to such extreme, and the times it went in the past are remembered as having dread consequences. The Union will become the most obvious and instant target of the world, since no one knows any reason for them not to direct the same unbound violence upon others.
                            I disagree - and I'm going to elaborate later. But which other splats show some knowledge of the Union, besides the Mage? I'm very interested.
                            Last edited by Posthumanity; 11-05-2017, 06:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Glass Walkers know there are other conspiracies on the cities. They have only passing knowledge of Mages in general, but they do guess something like the Technocracy exists.

                              Wraiths are ghosts, they are everywhere and some of them were anything else before, including Technocrats.

                              Changelings are extremely aware of the Technocracy, since they can sense the Banality they spread at a great distance, and it is an effect the Union isn't aware to even try to suppress.

                              Vampire elders, including Sabbat ones, have accompanied the wars of the Magi at a distance for a long time. They do not distinguish completely between Magi and Humans, but they do know of the Order of Reason and what they are now. Specially the Tremere, they know exactly what the Union is.

                              Back to the Fera, the Ananasi not only knows about the Union as they frequently spy on their Constructs both on Earth and on the Umbra. This Changing Breed is, maybe, the most successfully secret group in the entire WoD.


                              Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X