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  • #46
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    It IS possible. The Technocratic leaders think in very much "elder timespan". They have whole task forces seeing the future 24/7 to triple check any course of action.They see this WoD in precarious balance and think how they can subtly manipulate it to their advantage. It's not foolish (albeit not entirely wise either) to think that they do know something we don't know. Perhaps they were doing stuff in the shadows, perhaps Ventrue paranoia about "hidden masters" that aren't kindred but want to control vampiric affairs isn't unfounded...

    In revised there were factions within the Union that wanted to be more active on the vampie hunting side. This went paralel to the weakning of Control's grasp due to the Avatar Storm. This isn't a coincidence, these fractions are composed of plucky young agents that normaly would be doomed to the low ranks but, due to the Storm killing a lot of high ups, ended taking places of relative importance when the Technocracy had to reset the whole chain of command. Still in revised you have the whole reorganization thing where the Technos were pulling their act together after the Storm.

    That being said it is entirely possible for the Technocracy to change their focus, eventually. Hey, they're behind the "new Inquisition" of 5th edition, so that's something.
    While Iteration X and Progenitors have shifted their policy to hemovores, NWO and Syndicate are still cleaving to original "observe, do not engage" policy regarding bloodsuckers.

    And Void Engineers are too busy to fight off Threat Null and repulse EDE incursions to eradicate bloodsuckers.

    However, M20 unequivocally states the Union is actively waging war upon vampires, werebeasts, and other diverse Night-folk.

    And 5th edition...well, the Union is behind the entire "Second Inquisition" affairs. In fact, it seems that in 5th edition, the main priority of the Union is the vampires, instead of mage. And I would certainly not be surprised if majority of the institution's personnel, gears, equipment, military hardware, operational budget and various other resources are directly supplied, fitted and organized by the Union. I'm anticipating relationship between the Union and the Second Inquisition would be similar to the SCP Foundation and its Mobile Task Forces.

    BTW, I have always wondered why VE's NSC have not swarmed Venice and exterminated Giovanni from the root to branch.
    Last edited by Posthumanity; 11-09-2017, 08:21 AM.

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    • #47
      Dude, if you want to run your game where the Technocrats exterminate every last Vampire on earth, just do it already. Get it out of your system. You've been on this particular tear for so long now that it's getting genuinely tiresome.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
        Dude, if you want to run your game where the Technocrats exterminate every last Vampire on earth, just do it already. Get it out of your system. You've been on this particular tear for so long now that it's getting genuinely tiresome.
        I have already done it in my campaign, so don't worry; vampires are not gone completely extinct yet, but they are mostly eradicated and an nuisance at the worst.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          How well can they spy on Technocrats depends very little on their relationship with the Gauntlet and more on how well a given Construct wants to protect itself.

          For instance, their relation to the Gauntlet won't help against an artificialy raised one. Dimensional Science ALSO treats the Gauntlet in reverse (with science places as easy, and forests as very difficult), but an artificialy raised Gauntelt would blind them too (the only difference it's the relation between the increase and the base diff, it's the base what's reversed). Also that DimSci 1-2 is nowhere near as rare as levels 3+, to the point that one classic MiB rote uses DimSci 1.

          Now, I think that infiltrating in a street level Construct wouldn't be terribly hard for an Ananasi. The security is set against mages, perhaps against spirits (that are often summoned by mages), not against Fera. Prime detection it's a problem on the material side of the Gauntlet (technocratic sensors will sense the Gnosis) but the other side may have fewer defenses (increased Gauntlet does make sense).
          Then again, those places aren't where the real shit gets debated, if important Technocrats really want to defend against spying, Spheres provide plenty of options. And they seem to want that, think that the rank and file refers to their superiors as a myth ("the hidden masters", Control)-the average agent may have more proof of the existence of vampires than the existence of their own leadership.
          Fairly pointed.

          ‚Äč
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
          As I understand it, the problem with the Sabbat has nothing to do with the chances that Technocrats have in a vs match.
          I certainly agree with everything you said here. But my points were on the assumption of a total war, and the Technocracy trying to completely wipe the Sabbat. On a case-by-case scenario, most agents of the Union would certainly think the vampires as a first priority. But the Union as a whole, and the Sabbat as a whole, operate in a other level. The Sabbat as a whole is hard to completely obliterate, even if far weaker than the Technocracy (it is arguable, but not necessarily untrue that they are. It is completely a matter of interpretation), and that would require resources the Union do not have to spare that way. Also, the consequences would harm the Consensus more probably than not, and to the Union as a whole it matters far more. Most single agents, though, are likely to go for the vampires and even ally with some Traditionalists to do so.

          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
          And since the Revised is not correlated with V20 in any way, so-called "crossover sensibilities" is no excuse.
          This.

          Your questions is based on a cross-over assumption. Without cross-over, there is no Sabbat for the Union to deal with. And if there is now, it is probably a recent find and have nothing necessarily to do with the Sabbat described elsewhere.

          Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
          I have already done it in my campaign, so don't worry; vampires are not gone completely extinct yet, but they are mostly eradicated and an nuisance at the worst.
          And this is exactly how it worked for Mage until M20. Not being bent on cross-over, on Mage the vampires and other night-folk are near extinct nuisances. I want to make it clear that I only argued against the notion of complete extermination, and assuming cross-over.


          Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
            I have already done it in my campaign, so don't worry; vampires are not gone completely extinct yet, but they are mostly eradicated and an nuisance at the worst.
            Cool. Hope you had a good time. So why are you still on this screed?. You don't need anyone's permission. You've already decided that's how your Mage world works and you've put it into practice at your table. What purpose is served by continuing to insist upon and trying to justify your weird, kind of bullying obsession with belittling another game line and talking up a power fantasy of dominating and eradicating its denizens?

            It's a little creepy. I'm asking you to chill. Please.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
              What purpose is served by continuing to insist upon and trying to justify your weird, kind of bullying obsession with belittling another game line
              Since I cannot comprehend how the inhuman monsters likes of Sabbat could coexist with the Union in the Mage. If you think it is an obsession, call it a purifying obsession. Nor I belittle another game line. I'm denunciating an affront to humankind.

              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
              and talking up a power fantasy of dominating and eradicating its denizens?
              I'm genuinely offended. You are belittling and insulting me. Besides, how can you not only condone, but sympathize, advocate and justify the continued existence of the likes of Sabbat and Giovanni? Are you not a human being?

              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
              It's a little creepy. I'm asking you to chill. Please.
              It seems you are a little agitated. Why are you so upset with me?
              Last edited by Posthumanity; 11-10-2017, 08:01 PM.

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              • #52
                Ok, calm down you two, stop taking this game too personally. It is just a game.

                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                Since I cannot comprehend how the inhuman monsters likes of Sabbat could coexist with the Union in the Mage. If you think it is an obsession, call it a purifying obsession. Nor I belittle another game line. I'm denunciating an affront to humankind.
                From an in-setting standpoint, I think it fairly valid to want to cleanse the world from such a terrorizing group of bestial monstrosities without almost any redeeming quality. But from an OoC view, to call down an entire game line and state that your favored group simply could do it certainly seems more than a little bullying.

                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                I'm genuinely offended. You are belittling and insulting me. Besides, how can you not only condone, but sympathize, advocate and justify the continued existence of the likes of Sabbat and Giovanni? Are you not a human being?
                He isn't sympathizing with the Sabbat and Giovanni. They don't exist. As the Technocracy don't exist. Neither do vampires, mages or werebeasts. There is a lot of distinction between saying that a given fictional group can or can not do something to another fictional group, and saying that they deserve or not, or that they have a right to something.

                Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
                It seems you are a little agitated. Why are you so upset with me?
                Because you stepped in his toes as much as he stepped on yours.

                Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                Cool. Hope you had a good time. So why are you still on this screed?. You don't need anyone's permission. You've already decided that's how your Mage world works and you've put it into practice at your table. What purpose is served by continuing to insist upon and trying to justify your weird, kind of bullying obsession with belittling another game line and talking up a power fantasy of dominating and eradicating its denizens?

                It's a little creepy. I'm asking you to chill. Please.
                Chill out too, guy. If you can't withstand his opinion, you don't have to read it. I know what you're feeling, but you shouldn't be taking this so personal.


                Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

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                • #53
                  Indeed.

                  Originally posted by monteparnas
                  From an in-setting standpoint, I think it fairly valid to want to cleanse the world from such a terrorizing group of bestial monstrosities without almost any redeeming quality. But from an OoC view, to call down an entire game line and state that your favored group simply could do it certainly seems more than a little bullying.
                  Of course, if the Technocracy could just annihilate their enemies then there wouldn't be a game to play. That's why they didn't manage to eradicate the Traditions (it wasn't from a lack of trying). If being a Technocrat meant to have a "call the reinforces, you win" app in your cell phone, they wouldn't be fun to play as there would be no challenge.

                  The show has to go on, if Crossover was a bigger thing and each splat counted as more than a small note in the antagonist section, then I think that the Sabbat would be more than fitting antagonists for the Technocracy. But then one would want the Sabbat to rise up the chalenge in order to have interesting stories for a while.
                  Last edited by Aleph; 11-12-2017, 08:27 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Posthumanity
                    I'm genuinely offended. You are belittling and insulting me. Besides, how can you not only condone, but sympathize, advocate and justify the continued existence of the likes of Sabbat and Giovanni? Are you not a human being?
                    Yo, what's next? saying that D&D players that want to play evil alignaments are monsters .

                    Something I always say it's that WoD games weren't built with the other games in mind, things are bound to not make a lot of sense, contradictions abound. There's a lot of people that say Vampire and the Technocracy can't coexist in a setting - that's not to say that it can't be explained but you would have to do some concessions that not everyone wants to make. I totally understand, as I have been piss off by similar stuff before

                    We've given you the canon answer and a few ideas of how to make it have sense, obviously they weren't to your satisfaction.

                    Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen
                    Cool. Hope you had a good time. So why are you still on this screed?. You don't need anyone's permission. You've already decided that's how your Mage world works and you've put it into practice at your table. What purpose is served by continuing to insist upon and trying to justify your weird, kind of bullying obsession with belittling another game line and talking up a power fantasy of dominating and eradicating its denizens?

                    It's a little creepy. I'm asking you to chill. Please.
                    Well, people in these forums seem to believe that the canon of this game it's important or something.

                    Let the one that has never been involved on a "splat vs splat" cast the first stone...

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                    • #55
                      As much as cannon isn't sacred on most of our games, it is still the only semblance of a common ground we have to develop any discussion.

                      By the way, it could be a valid idea, in a cross-over presumption, to really make the Sabbat the biggest threat and downplay the war with the Traditions. I already had Technocracy games focused on fighting threats from other splats, and it does play well.


                      Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                        By the way, it could be a valid idea, in a cross-over presumption, to really make the Sabbat the biggest threat and downplay the war with the Traditions. I already had Technocracy games focused on fighting threats from other splats, and it does play well.
                        Why do you think that the Sabbat be the biggest threat in such a crossover, instead of the Camarilla?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Why do you think that the Sabbat be the biggest threat in such a crossover, instead of the Camarilla?
                          Not the biggest threat to the Technocracy from a martial standpoint, but the biggest threats to the Technocracy's interests. Maintaining the Consensus is one of, if not THE, biggest of the Union's interests. The Camarilla plays along with the Consensus - working hard to maintain the Masquerade - while the Sabbat does not (as much). Ergo, the Technocracy pays the Camarilla little to no mind, while the Sabbat is an active thorn in the Union's side.


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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                            Well, people in these forums seem to believe that the canon of this game it's important or something.
                            It's easy enough to avoid these fights just by pluralizing "canon." Just takes one letter.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Faradn View Post
                              It's easy enough to avoid these fights just by pluralizing "canon." Just takes one letter.
                              I don't think so. If the authors decide to follow a line that's what the books are going to say to me, I can refuse to buy the material or create my own, but that's a consequence of outrage, not a way to counter it, more so if I'm a fan of said books.

                              I love to see mage in other splat books, and if I think they're misrepresented I can't avoid to fell bad-speaking about "canon(s)" say nothing to me, I can't unsee what I read and even if I could, as monteparnas states, that defines the "common ground" when you speak with other people. You don't get to decide what's canon and what isn't. That's the whole point of canonicity.

                              There isn't a canon where vampires are annihilated by the technocracy. There just isn't (and some people seem to think that such a canon would be deeply offensive, I wonder how would they feel about plurals if Posthumanity vision was canonized). Books don't endorse that outcome and thus people thinking that's the natural way things should develop would forever be frustrated when they pick up a new WoD book because they won't be able to not see the vampires there

                              You can speak about canon(s) when the canon it's contradictory or diverges from itself, but the way you pretend to use the word just makes no sense to me.

                              As I see it, the way to avoid these fights it's to have self control and maturity. And nobody I know truly keeps their jimmies unrustled forever, not even you, so learning to forgive it's also a good thing.
                              Last edited by Aleph; 11-15-2017, 10:15 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Aleph When I say canons I am not talking about individual interpretations. I am talking about the fact that each gameline has its own canon and attempts at reconciling them are often problematic. I'm not saying people shouldn't try to reconcile them. But it should be acknowledged that it's really hard.

                                I agree that forgiveness is good, and that I am not exactly an exemplar of neutrality and restraint myself.
                                Last edited by Faradn; 11-15-2017, 07:21 PM.

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