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  • #61
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post
    That's where we're going to part ways. I don't accept the Aided as part of the WoD as is BECAUSE they are just an attempt to shoehorn in a Celtic Euthanatos and there is nothing about it that makes sense other than just that. I would buy it with a SIMPLE fix. A bit of fluff that talks about why the 100% core Verbena Aided aren't welcome in the Verbena. I mean, the VALDERMEN, who are much more Euthanatos-like and the Bjornaer who have been in bed with the intolerant Diedne-killing Hermetics are WARMLY welcomed into the Verbena.
    Indeed, we disagree. The Verbenae judge, though they do not decide for the sake of the Wheel who has to live and who has top die. They react to events and are sometimes (often ?) vengeful mages, but they do not decide in the name of Destiny and Karma (or their Celtic version). The fluff is there I think. The Aided are not welcomed by the Verbena because of their practice considered as a consequence of great Hubris and misunderstanding of the Cycle of Life. Again, their struggle is close to the one opposing the Akashic Brotherhood and the Euthanatos. They share the same culture, religion or belief but do not interpret their role in the world the same way. Well... in the end, let's get the correct scaling here. How many are the Aided ? 60 poeple ? ^^ Not really a reason to fight for it

    Concerning the Bjornaer, their practice is a Hermetic one. That's not because it's close to Nature that it's Verbena. It oversimplifies the whole matter in my opinion.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
      The same is true with the Dervish (though this faction actually exist in our world). They could not be part of the Cult of Ecstasy because even if they practice magick through their trance, their belief is centered on the almighty power of Allah. This is not compatible with the Cultist belief.
      Why would it be incompatible? The practice of Sama is aimed at reaching wadj (a trance like ecstatic state) and/or khamra ("spiritual drunkenness") with the end goal of unveiling divine mysteries and gaining spiritual knowledge. There are a number of Ecstatic sects who seek to touch the power of the Divine, and the story of how Rumi came up with Sama in the first place - hearing the chant of "there is no god but Allah" in the hammering of the goldsmiths while walking through the market, suddenly thrusting him into a state of wadj and compelled to spin - bears an uncanny resemblance to being made aware of the Lakashim for the first time.

      As for the Aided, I think Malcolm Shepherd (or it may have been Jess Heinig, I can't recall at this point) once told me that his read on them was that they were something of a bunch of elitist snobs who joined the Euthanatos primarily because all of their omens and readings said they'd die out if they didn't. I may be misremembering though.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Ajax View Post
        My feelings are this are informed by going to look at the mages in the Book of Secrets examples of developed Foci. Read those and and come back and say that they haven't taken those pools of color that were the ideas of Practice and social identity as a Sect and just gone finger-paintining with them. If THOSE are typical mages, then a Sect is just a political affiliation. If that.
        I'm not seeing the issue here. Are you under the impression that these guys are Orphans unless otherwise specified? They might be; but even if they are, I don't see how that makes the Traditions nothing more than socio-political structures. If I had to guess which Tradition Able Ferox is a member of, my first guess would be the Virtual Adepts. Ashpaw Ten Sticks would be a natural fit for the Dreamspeakers; Corvia Delbaeth looks very much like a Verbena; Dr. Hans von Roth is an Etherite; Sanjay Sachdeva is an agent of Iteration X; and while Tanisha Royale isn't in the Akashayana, it's easily the Tradition that she's most compatible with.

        Conversely, the idea that Able might be in the Order of Hermes seems highly unlikely. Ashpaw probably isn't a Chorister. Corvia doesn't strike me as Euthanatos material. And Tanisha isn't going to be joining the Sisterhood of Hypollyta any time soon.

        Originally posted by Ajax View Post
        I've seen Brucato say that he feels the game should really be about Orphans and very individualized perceptions of magic and that all the politics of the setting really got in the way of the core concepts of the game. And I would say that M20, in its bones, bears that out. Honestly, it's an interesting way to look at it and I think we're going to dig into that and see how it plays out in the next Mage chronicle. BUT, and this is a big but, it does undermine some of the pillars that hold up the setting of the game as is.
        Brucato certainly is on record as wanting to destigmatize the Orphans. But again, I don't see how that removes Focus from the Traditions. Each group in M20 has a section on Focus which presents the gist of how mages in that group work their magick; and you're not going to be a member of that group if your Focus isn't compatible with its Focus.


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        • #64
          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

          As to the whole, “There is nothing that mystically binds together the magical praxis of the members of Tradition or Sect or, in reverse, anything that decisively sets them apart” thing?

          Can I get any argument that this is actually new?
          I actually would argue that this is something of a new take to be honest.

          I read a few of your post and while I generally agree with you, especially about the rise of technomancer factions within the Traditions, I feel that the Revised Edition core book and many others actually promote strongly the idea that the Traditions are cohesive groups because they have both mystical beliefs and practices which differ from one another and that that is the primary reason for the division between their respective groups.

          I really feel that many of the revised edition books were written from this prespective and that, in fact, M20 HAS gone in a new direction.

          Chapter one of the Revised Edition Storyteller’s Handbook is a prime example of this, it is decisively states in numerous passages that what divides the Traditions is their different theories and practices regarding magic and that without those differences there would not be Traditions at all.

          Now, I’m not agreeing with this perspective, but I am acknowledging that it comes up rather frequently in many of the Revised Edition books.

          Comment


          • #65
            The problem is when Revised is using "practice" in that sense, it isn't what M20 uses as a Practice as part of a Focus.

            For example, all of the Chorus might use religious devotion as a common small p practice (which is very clearly the case in Revised). However in both Revised and M20, this can still express itself in another of ways. Revised puts it all into foci, but M20 standardizes things like Practices as well. A Chorister that uses guided meditation on the unity of the One is using very different Practice and Instrument combos from a Chorister that leads people in elaborate Catholic mass inspired services. Revised considers this all the same "practice," and M20's Practices doesn't create something new.

            It feels to me too much like an equivocation over terminology than a real demonstrate of a change in how things work in each edition.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              I'm not seeing the issue here. Are you under the impression that these guys are Orphans unless otherwise specified? They might be; but even if they are, I don't see how that makes the Traditions nothing more than socio-political structures. If I had to guess which Tradition Able Ferox is a member of, my first guess would be the Virtual Adepts. Ashpaw Ten Sticks would be a natural fit for the Dreamspeakers; Corvia Delbaeth looks very much like a Verbena; Dr. Hans von Roth is an Etherite; Sanjay Sachdeva is an agent of Iteration X; and while Tanisha Royale isn't in the Akashayana, it's easily the Tradition that she's most compatible with.

              Conversely, the idea that Able might be in the Order of Hermes seems highly unlikely. Ashpaw probably isn't a Chorister. Corvia doesn't strike me as Euthanatos material. And Tanisha isn't going to be joining the Sisterhood of Hypollyta any time soon.

              Brucato certainly is on record as wanting to destigmatize the Orphans. But again, I don't see how that removes Focus from the Traditions. Each group in M20 has a section on Focus which presents the gist of how mages in that group work their magick; and you're not going to be a member of that group if your Focus isn't compatible with its Focus.
              The fact that these are characeters that are supposed to show how the Focus system works and that you are having to make guesses about what Tradition they belong to pretty much locks down my point. If Focus and Sect ere related in anything other than the most tenuous way, then mentioning what Sect such a character belonged to would be front and center, including if they are (or even were) an Orphan. The fact that their Sect is so utterly irrelevant it is actually NEVER mentioned in describing their methodology and philosophy and practice of magic is a decisive indicator of what I've been pointing out. If your Sect actually MATTERED to how you do magic, it would be there. It isn't And really, the exceptions are just that, exceptions which come close to proving the rule. The Sects are political units created from a shared history. They aren't really anything more than broadly relevant to magic and, if they are to any degree, it's not a requirement, adhereing to a particular Sect way of doing things comes across as somewhat quaint, old-fashioned and shows something of a lack of creativity.

              As someone who loves the old Foundation/Pillar system so much you want to keep it current for some outlier mages and who has worked so hard to create a new take on magic for the Union, it seems like the way BoS and, to a degree, M20, handles how Focus relates to Sect would go against your grain. It' effectively unfettering mages from really anything other than a personal way of doing magic that may sorta look like what those other people over here I sometimes hang out with when I'm not with you guys in my cabal, but, really, isn't in any meaningful way.

              Admittedly, you CAN say that those initial Practice suggestions under the Sect descriptions aren't really so much suggestions as fundamentals that, to really get any benefit from Sect membership, you have to, if not master, at least get a journeyman's knowledge of. It's probably not to much to say that all Verbena have Witchcraft as a core to their Practice then add on infuences from other Practices or synthesize them in for an individual mage's "take" on their personal way of casting. Or that Hermetics have High Ritual Magic (and probably Alchemy? I'm not so sure Dominance should be required...), Etherites have Weird Science and so on. (Yeah, that does leave some folks in an odd place, particularly when the Sect in question is really something of a political alliance without much in the way of commonality of practice, like, say, the Euthanatos).

              But that is NOT the way the game, as it is currently being presented, is going. Brucato isn't trying to destigmatize Orphans. I mean, in the context of the game world, he really hasn't besides a small leg up by having them be the Ex Misc of the New Traditions... I mean, Disparate Alliance. That's not much. The Union still wants to forcibly recruit them and the Traditions are just a step behind most of the time or, institutionally, looks down on them. What he has explicitly stated (mostly on Facebook), is that he really feels that, to him, the core of Mage should be about the development of individualized magic to the exclusion of any kind of groupthink and, further, to not even having the Factions or Sects at all. That isn't destigmatizing them as much as putting them front and center and pushing everything else to the sides. It's the exact opposite of DA's Foundation/Pillar system. It's a World of Orphans, each of them experiencing an individualized progression on a personal quest to understand the way they, and they alone, experience altering reality through the power of their wills. And his Focus system (which BTW, I do really like) has enacted his ideas.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                But that is NOT the way the game, as it is currently being presented, is going. Brucato isn't trying to destigmatize Orphans. I mean, in the context of the game world, he really hasn't besides a small leg up by having them be the Ex Misc of the New Traditions... I mean, Disparate Alliance. That's not much. The Union still wants to forcibly recruit them and the Traditions are just a step behind most of the time or, institutionally, looks down on them. What he has explicitly stated (mostly on Facebook), is that he really feels that, to him, the core of Mage should be about the development of individualized magic to the exclusion of any kind of groupthink and, further, to not even having the Factions or Sects at all. That isn't destigmatizing them as much as putting them front and center and pushing everything else to the sides. It's the exact opposite of DA's Foundation/Pillar system. It's a World of Orphans, each of them experiencing an individualized progression on a personal quest to understand the way they, and they alone, experience altering reality through the power of their wills. And his Focus system (which BTW, I do really like) has enacted his ideas.
                That is not true. All Traditions have their prefered practices and there are minor groups using minor practices in all Traditions. In a way, your statements are both true and false. I think you forget a major factor here: the education one. Poeple grow up in different sub-cultures all other the world. The Traditions are not all political, they are obviously cultural too. The Witchcraft practiced by the Celtic witches is not the same that the Witchcract practiced by African sorcerers and marabouts. And it is different from the practice of the Shamans from North America or Russia (which has its own version of shamanism) and it is different from the animism of the Taoists. All these Traditions share bits of practice and beliefs in various forms. They are similar in some ways and different in others. A world of Orphans would not be in the game's spirit where Magick is learnt with apprenticeship. Mages learn their magick from masters and mentors from a particular sub-culture and will (with often minor changes) practice Magick the same way. And Mages share. They do because they're lost if they do not.

                In Mage: The Ascension, Magick is dangerous Because of Paradox. A world of Orphans would lead to few Mages accomplishing anything relevant, or even anything at all. At the begining of the Traditions, they gathered to Horizon because of that. They were dying at the hand of the Order of Reason, but that's not the only reason. They were dying because Magick was dying. Paradox appeared and few could handled it. They formed the Traditions to survive. Even if it meant allying with groups from pretty different cultures, especially if yours has few members.

                The cultural aspect of the game is at its core. It's so important that everything is the about the culture dominion of one group over all, hence the Ascension War.

                I must have misunderstood your point somewhere. If so, do not hesitate to correct me. English is not my native langage and I can sometimes lose meaning in the translations ^^

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                • #68
                  His point was that the game's developer, Phil Brucato, wants it to be “a world of Orphans”, and is doing what he can to push the game in that direction.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                    His point was that the game's developer, Phil Brucato, wants it to be “a world of Orphans”, and is doing what he can to push the game in that direction.
                    Ah ok. Then I have not that impression. It seems to me that the game is more understood now than twe decades ago, even by the author. What he had at the begining was a "what could be" world of Mage in the sense that he wanted the game to be multicultural but lacked the knowledge or the understanding to make it so (but I might be mistaken...). The understanding of sub-cultures and their practice is much more realistic now that the practices are not considered limited to the Traditions. There are several types of witchcraft, alchemy, shamanism, etc. It should not be restricted to one Tradtion or the other. However, the cultural background of each Tradition is much more relevant now that beliefs, practices and instruments are separated. This trinity seems more realistic to me since cultural habits often inherits from this logic: what do you believe in ? How does it affect your life ? With what do you act upon it ?

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
                      Ah ok. Then I have not that impression. It seems to me that the game is more understood now than twe decades ago, even by the author. What he had at the begining was a "what could be" world of Mage in the sense that he wanted the game to be multicultural but lacked the knowledge or the understanding to make it so (but I might be mistaken...). The understanding of sub-cultures and their practice is much more realistic now that the practices are not considered limited to the Traditions. There are several types of witchcraft, alchemy, shamanism, etc. It should not be restricted to one Tradtion or the other. However, the cultural background of each Tradition is much more relevant now that beliefs, practices and instruments are separated. This trinity seems more realistic to me since cultural habits often inherits from this logic: what do you believe in ? How does it affect your life ? With what do you act upon it ?

                      How are they separated exactly? I don't see any evidence of any of this except for the ligthest of glosses. There are those bits in the Sect descriptions about the Foci of the members, but they are are barely even suggestions, as they go from one or so "main ideas" to exploding outwards into appreciably more than half the list of possible Practices. What I'm looking for is something in, say, the section on Focus where it explicitly goes into how SECT not the mage's personal beliefs, but those aspects of those beliefs that are shared with the member of their Sect in such a way that they create a meaningful distinction by which that shared belief distinguishes them from the shared personal beliefs of members of other Sects.

                      This seems particularly pertinent with, say, some of the Disparates (Kopa Loei, Wu Lung, Taftani, etc.), who are supposed to be non-joiners, not just for political reasons (e.g. not wanting to bow before the Big Three), but because they had a very firm collective idea of how magic worked and didn't want the Traditions' paws all over their belief system.

                      In fact, I don't see the relevance you are describing at all. In pretty much every place, eccumenicism is the rule, rather than the exception. Which is fine. That's not actually a weakness of the Traditions. The Chorus would be less interesting if it was hardcore fundamental Christians who reject all other notions of divinity, or the Hermetics were particularized into static Houses without the "creative playground" of Ex Misc. and the willingness to, on occasion, pull the European High Magical stick out of their buts and recognize common ground with other similar ritualized practices like the Wu Lung in Hong Lei and the Ngoma in Ngoma...

                      I am less interested in the "purity of belief" with regard to a specific culture's folkways (except where that's relevant, see above for Disparates) than I am in seeing some actual hard crunchy-style evidence of SECT culture that represents a group-think about the way in which that particular sect does magic that both binds it together and differentiates it from other sects. Though that is implied to some degree, it is an implication that doesn't really manifest currently, and, in fact, the weight of current trends is in the opposing direction.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post

                        Indeed, we disagree. The Verbenae judge, though they do not decide for the sake of the Wheel who has to live and who has top die. They react to events and are sometimes (often ?) vengeful mages, but they do not decide in the name of Destiny and Karma (or their Celtic version). The fluff is there I think. The Aided are not welcomed by the Verbena because of their practice considered as a consequence of great Hubris and misunderstanding of the Cycle of Life. Again, their struggle is close to the one opposing the Akashic Brotherhood and the Euthanatos. They share the same culture, religion or belief but do not interpret their role in the world the same way. Well... in the end, let's get the correct scaling here. How many are the Aided ? 60 poeple ? ^^ Not really a reason to fight for it

                        Concerning the Bjornaer, their practice is a Hermetic one. That's not because it's close to Nature that it's Verbena. It oversimplifies the whole matter in my opinion.
                        Yeah. Celts do the Verbenae thing. Not the Karma thing. There isn't any more of an easy translation of that concept into what we know of druidic mysticism than there is into modern Western ideas. It is NOT equivalent to geasa. That is a not really an oversimplification, it's a complete misunderstanding of what geasa are and how they worked. So, by practice, they should be back in the Verbena, not withstanding any mental gymnastics to the contrary. Transmigration of souls found in Irish myths and legends isn't even close to being like the cycle of reincarnation. It's just not.

                        HOWEVER, what I keep saying that gets lost here is that I am actually somewhat okay with having the Aided in the Euthanatos. Mostly because, even though the Wheel of Karma/Dharma is really hardcore Chakravanti mysticism, the Euthanatos aren't the Chakravanti and never have been. In fact, the Chakravanti are effectively the largest group in a plurality of groups that don't share anything specific as a whole (or didn't originally). There is something of a loose continuum of beliefs that overlap from one group to another that doesn't/didn't really join together in and of themselves. It was more of an "othering" external to the groups that were shoved together by people who didn't understand them and didn't even want to try to understand them. The Madzimbabwe aren't about reincarnation. The Mystery Cults aren't really either as it's about continuance of the individual in way in that would be anathema to dharma, the kind of thing that leads to demons and ghosts and having karma pull a soul down.

                        So, since the Euthanatos DON'T (didn't) really have a coherent core ideology, why not have a renegade bunch of Celts who are for all intents and purposes perfectly good Verbena join up? The Bjornaer were almost perfectly good Hermetics for several centuries (from the old Ars Magica stuff, it does seem like Bjornaer was a reluctant joinee, but, hey, if Diedne is doing it, right?), but the Verbena were cool with them joining up. I just want a STORY to it. Why did these particular Verbena leave and throw in with the group that was mistakenly being grouped together as "icky death mages"?

                        Moreover, I am also very cool with, having such a story in hand, having the Aided and the other groups in the Euthanatos actually bend towards each other as they establish a coherent group identity after having been together for so long. I mean, there would have been a lot of exposure to each other's ideas and they would start to notice that each group had some ways of handling situation that just worked better than the way their traditional praxis handled it. (Like, say, the Chakravanti noticing that the Madzimbabwe had some mad ghost handling skills that might make their attempts to deal with lost souls that need to find their way back to the Wheel better than what they had been doing and so on). In the end, after half a millennium, though there are sub-groups that are still identifiable as being the ideological descendants of the Chakravanti who call themselves Chakravanti, they would, unlike the original Chakravanti, share some pool of mystical knowhow created from the collaboration of all the constituent groups of the Euthanatos over time.

                        In which case, the modern Aided, who would probably still be Verbena enough to join back up on an individual or group basis if that was in the cards, would partake of that pool and would be able to use some ideas in their Practices that would be more African or Indian or Greek or Voodoo with a Celtic gloss.

                        But I still want that story about why they chose to or were forced to join the weirdo/goth kids table in the Convocation cafeteria instead of sitting at the popular kids table with Nightshade and her cronies....

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                        • #72
                          Just throwing this out there… The Batini cannot have Entropy. It's not “Entropy is rare in their ranks” the way Dimensional Science is rare in Iteration X's ranks; it's a flat-out prohibition.


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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            How are they separated exactly? I don't see any evidence of any of this except for the ligthest of glosses. There are those bits in the Sect descriptions about the Foci of the members, but they are are barely even suggestions, as they go from one or so "main ideas" to exploding outwards into appreciably more than half the list of possible Practices.
                            Of course they're suggestions. Why would you want it to be otherwise ? Belonging to the same group does not mean every Mage of the group is the same. Mages from a given group share belief, not practice. It is obvious that poeple gather for political reasons, but it is not enough to bring together an entire Tradition. Belief is necessary too. On paper, it should come first (and hopefully, that's the other way around ! For the sake of plot, intrigue ^^)

                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            What I'm looking for is something in, say, the section on Focus where it explicitly goes into how SECT not the mage's personal beliefs, but those aspects of those beliefs that are shared with the member of their Sect in such a way that they create a meaningful distinction by which that shared belief distinguishes them from the shared personal beliefs of members of other Sects.
                            Again, why would you want anything at all to be so rigid ? It serves absolutely no purpose, and anyway, this is not realistic. I already gave examples of different practices being cross-traditions.

                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            This seems particularly pertinent with, say, some of the Disparates (Kopa Loei, Wu Lung, Taftani, etc.), who are supposed to be non-joiners, not just for political reasons (e.g. not wanting to bow before the Big Three), but because they had a very firm collective idea of how magic worked and didn't want the Traditions' paws all over their belief system.
                            Yeah that's true. Separately.
                            They share nothing in common. Bata'a share nothing with the Hollow Ones or the Batini for example. And well, the Disparate Alliance, is pretty much only political. But well, this should be left to personal interpretation and is another matter I think.

                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            In fact, I don't see the relevance you are describing at all.
                            Yeah, I know.

                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                            I am less interested in the "purity of belief" with regard to a specific culture's folkways (except where that's relevant, see above for Disparates) than I am in seeing some actual hard crunchy-style evidence of SECT culture that represents a group-think about the way in which that particular sect does magic that both binds it together and differentiates it from other sects. Though that is implied to some degree, it is an implication that doesn't really manifest currently, and, in fact, the weight of current trends is in the opposing direction.
                            Where I think you are mistaken is that you seem to think that under the Witchcraft section, there can only be one sort of Witchcraft and that it should be associated to a given Sect. Same with the other practices. But this is not the case and shoult not be. Each type of a particular practice is associated to a particular belief. The spells a celtic witch usually cast would not use the same tools or words that a spanish brujah will use. To give another examples of known Mages, both Morgane la Fée and Harry Potter use Witchcraft though they are not from the same Tradition and share not belief in common. A given practice is not limited to a given Sect. It is simply not.

                            The practices described in the core-book are examples of practices that the Mage can follow. This list is not exhaustive. You can see it another way. Take a Verbena witch casting a spell with magick words. In which langage would she speak ? There are plenty of answers to that question ! And the correct answer for a given Mage is linked to her particular belief (because this is the core of Mage):
                            - She could speak the langage of the Devil if she has a Christian background and follow, say, a Satanist cult (which has not always been pejorative),
                            - She could speak the anciant words of the Thatha Dé Danann if she believes in celtic mythology.
                            etc.
                            Everything is about fluff. I'll admit that. But it makes the character more realistic to detail those kind of things.

                            And guess what ? Same is true with belief. A specific belief does not involve a specific practice and is not associated to a specific Sect. An Hermetic Mage could be an Alchemist or a Wizard (different practices and often different instruments because yeah ! Instruments are cross-practices too) and her belief could find its roots in the Jewish Kabbalah or in Taoism. And an Alchemist or a wizard could have either belief. Reasons behind the practices would be different (one would use the divine essence of creation while the other would use a sort of body-spirit cultivation. The five agents of the body from Eastern culture being different from the divine essences of western alchemy). And it's only an other example.

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                            • #74
                              Just to clarify: I'm pretty sure that when NicoTheDuck says “belief”, that's not “Belief” as in “Paradigm”, the first formal component of M20's Focus. Likewise, I don't think that he (she?) is using “practice” to mean “Practice”, the second component of M20's Focus. He's using “belief” and “practice” more informally.

                              That said, part of the point is that the M20 Focus write-ups for the various factions are rather informal, too; but that's not the same as saying that there's no “there” there, and that one's choice of Focus and one's choice of faction don't have anything to do with each other. Let's not fall into the fallacy of the excluded middle: just because M20 doesn't insist that everyone in a given faction have precisely the same Focus, that doesn't mean that the opposite is true.


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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                                Just throwing this out there… The Batini cannot have Entropy. It's not “Entropy is rare in their ranks” the way Dimensional Science is rare in Iteration X's ranks; it's a flat-out prohibition.
                                That was actually retconned in revised edition as just being a thing a handful of fanatics did.


                                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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