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Magical Girls and Mage: the Ascension?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
    I might be hated for what I'm going to say, but I will say it anyway

    I do not think it could go into any group. I might lack cultural background, but Magical Girls is not a thing of the World of Darkness. Mood does not correspond, and concerning Mage: The Ascension, I cannot see how such a concept would work from an actual Mage setting point of view. In game, Paradox would prevent it.

    ...

    My conclusion is that Mage is an excellent game in every aspect (fanboy-ing with little pinky hearts, stars and butterflies in the eyes) but it is not adapted to everything ^^
    I once played in a mage game where one of the players was a pokemon trainer with pokeballs as fetishes containing actual pokemon. What started off as a strange jokey character actually morphed into something much more grim as it became very obvious early on that pokemon die very easily when pushed beyond their limits. The loss of his bulbasaur was the tipping point which brought this 10 year old kid to reconsider everything they thought they knew about doing one's best in a world where one's best is never good enough.

    If pokemon can work in WoD, then anything can.


    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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    • #17
      I play a specific game for its setting, themes and moods, not its system. WoD is neither about Pokemons or Sailor Moon. I disagree with you but you can of course do whatever you want with the game

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      • #18
        Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
        I play a specific game for its setting, themes and moods, not its system. WoD is neither about Pokemons or Sailor Moon. I disagree with you but you can of course do whatever you want with the game
        Why ever not?


        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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        • #19
          It strikes me that the 'cute magical companion that gives advice' could be made to work with a high Avatar Background.

          Bluecho: you raised a good point above when you were talking about Advanced tech. Often advanced tech fits rather well with some of the magical girls backstory. Sailor Mercury with her super advanced computer is an obvious one, but then you have 'lost artefacts', or the Maths Based Magic from Nanoha(Forget its actual name).

          Paradox is going to be the real issue unless 'a secret battle' is baked into the magical girl mythos. Sailor Moon for example obviously had the Senshi come to save the day and then do impossible things in front of the public in their Magical Girl identities. That said, you shouldn't be that visible unless you want the Technocracy to show up anyway (Though the Syndicate screaming in horror at the PR backlash as some hard-case decides to shoot the Reality Deviant speaking about How We Can All Get Along would be kind of hilarious, though probably not realisitc).


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          • #20
            I had no idea whitewolf had anythign to do with princess: the hopeful

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            • #21
              Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
              I play a specific game for its setting, themes and moods, not its system. WoD is neither about Pokemons or Sailor Moon. I disagree with you but you can of course do whatever you want with the game
              I agree with @nicotheduck

              I just don’t see it working. It seems like a silly joke that doesn’t have any depth beyond being a replication of a TV trope.

              To me, a magical style does not allow a mage to perform magic unless the paradigm of that mage has deeper substance than what I feel the Magical Girl meme suggests.

              I see no underlying philosophy here, i see no explanation of the Telurian and how this form of magic works and changes reality. I feel that in the the mage world, as described, the paradigm and style of the magical girl is not sufficiently fleshed out.

              Of course there is one exception, and that is the marauder. This exception is one where the magical girl theme and the Pokémon mage will most definitely work.

              These paradigms need no more fleshing out in this case, the psychosis of the marauder in question is enough of a force to support the magical works the magical girl would undertake.

              In this case I could see the magical girl working, as a mad person who is incapable of interacting with reality in any meaningful way that is not destructively detached from perceiving it accurately.

              The pain and disbelief such a person would feel if they finally became aware that they are not what they thought they were, when they could no longer support their personal delusion, would be enough to cause them to destroy themselves I think.

              Having played a marauder and really thought deeply about how they would feel if they are forced to realize that their delusion is not true and that they’ve been wrong about everything they’ve believed all this time, I think that most of them wouldn’t be able to handle it, and in those moments, break from reality completely and possibly destroy themselves.

              That’s honestly were I see the magical girl going. A sad tragic end where the magic wand breaks, the exotic costume falls apart and the loudly shouted super attack does nothing. Then, when confronted with the reality that they have no power, and thus, are not what they thought they were, they snap and loose it completely.

              But that’s often when the men in black team storms the poor marauder in the streets and destroys everything but the memory of a broken soul.

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              • #22
                While Marauders are an obvious Solution, I think your kind of jumping the gun with the lack of Depth of the Magical Girl paradigm. Honestly a lot of them have pretty fleshed out origins and justifications of how magic/reality work. Certainly not all of them but there are more than a few who do seem to have backstories that justifies how and why they have these magical powers. Not all of them certainly, as there are certainly more than a few magical shows/manga that operate on 'handwaviium' but few of them could be justified under Mage with only minimum adjustments to bring them under something workable.

                More if you think magical girls only operate on hope and light, you haven't seen many magical shows. Those shows can get dark as all hell.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Furoan View Post
                  While Marauders are an obvious Solution, I think your kind of jumping the gun with the lack of Depth of the Magical Girl paradigm. Honestly a lot of them have pretty fleshed out origins and justifications of how magic/reality work. Certainly not all of them but there are more than a few who do seem to have backstories that justifies how and why they have these magical powers. Not all of them certainly, as there are certainly more than a few magical shows/manga that operate on 'handwaviium' but few of them could be justified under Mage with only minimum adjustments to bring them under something workable.

                  More if you think magical girls only operate on hope and light, you haven't seen many magical shows. Those shows can get dark as all hell.
                  I see your point but I feel that the comments i made were on the magical girl in general

                  When I thought of a mage believing, “I am the archetypal magical girl” I thought to myself, “that’s a marauder.”

                  Once the magical girl begins to have an individual paradigm, she stops being an archetypal magical girl and becomes whatever she is according to her individual paradigm.

                  Still, the association with a superhero like figure really makes me think marauder.

                  Any mage who thinks (and I’m not suggesting that magical girls say or think this) “I am a superhero, my magic works because I have superpowers and that’s the only justification I need,” is probably insane or on the path to becoming a marauder.

                  While i agree with you about the individual magical girls having their own beliefs in their individual shows, the magical girl in general strikes me as an archetype that really loans itself to being a marauder.

                  “I need to change costume before I can do my magic, I do this through a magical transformation after which I emerge in a crazy costume”

                  “I need to scream the name of my ‘attack spells’ before they take effect and then I do spectacular damage with vulgar supernatural powers”

                  “I am often accompanied by a strange creature with supernatural intelligence and powers of its own, it may or may not hide this around most people.”

                  “I fight crazy monsters all the time, that’s now normal to me.”

                  “I see myself as a supernatural hero who fights the forces of evil.”

                  “I often use magic wands and other cool stuff to do my magic, I have no idea how this works.”

                  This sounds like a marauder to me.

                  I’m not disagreeing with you Fouran, I’m just putting in my two cents, please don’t take it as me slamming your opinoin or possible love of this genre. If you want to play your mage games with a cabal of magic girls then I say do it.

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                  • #24
                    No offence was taken or meant on my part. I do think the statements you made in that last post WOULD point to a Marauder.

                    That said even most of those Statements could fit with a Paradim/Focus/Instrument as needed.

                    That skimpy costume? It's magical Power Armour (or serves the same focus as an Enhancement).

                    That strange magical Creature that follows her around? It's actually a high level Avatar.

                    The Crazy Monsters / Evil Wizard? An Infernalsit, a Nephandi, Pentex Brach or something like the Sabbat could work here. (Though yes its stretching things a bit.

                    Where the magical girl GOT those Magical Wonders like the Skimpy Costume or the Magic Wand I'm not sure about. Could be they hooked up with a Wonder Crafter in their city, or might have created heir own stuff...As for the Vulgar Magic, Madokahad the Magical Girls entering the Witches private Dimensions to have their battles so crossing the Horizon to fight the Banes infesting the local Pentex Branch could work (possibly not in Revised with the Avatar Storm but...)

                    As said, I'm just throwing out ideas for how you could justify your magical girl character in Mage. You would probably need to go 'all magical girls' to make it work properly but it could be interesting plot if ran properly.


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                    • #25
                      Problem is not about the system. You could find your magickal trinity (Belief/Practice/Instrument) for your magical girl. I just do not think Mage: The Ascension is about anything close to it. First question. What's your Ascension ? I think that when you build your character deeply enough to make it a true Mage, you lose everything that made it a magical girl. And it's not about the Daaaaaaark of the WoD you know. I'm aware that there are plenty of mangas evolving in dark universes.

                      WoD is not about being Dark. It's a consequence of its nature. The WoD is an escatological world, which means that the End of Times is near. This has two consequences :
                      - It is a gothic world: poeple turn to melancoly and mysticism to try to find answers and explanations to their questions and their fears,
                      - It is a punk world: when you know you're doomed, you're ready to do pretty much everything to survive.

                      Of course, the Golden Rule states that you can do whatever you want with the game and not play on those fundations. My opinion is that it will be a mistake. But please, do as you want. I was merely expressing an opinion.

                      Mage is a great game, but it is not the only one and other games are more adapted to the kind of game a magickal girl would naturally be in. And well, this kind of game would require flexibility in action scenes and really, the WoD system is not easily used to do that. Well, I can see no advantage to play Mage: the Ascension with that kind of character.

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                      • #26
                        I disagree with the consensus here, both about WoD not allowing magical girls into its mood, and that a magical girl couldn't be a valid Mage.


                        NicoTheDuck IS correct, in that WoD is defined by its moral complexity, not its darkness. The darkness is only a byproduct of moral complexity. What I disagree with is the idea that a magical girl's belief system - that which believes in justice and love and friendship, and how these forces can win out - is inherently incompatible with the WoD, or with Mage in particular. In the WoD in general, we KNOW that optimism can work in it, because we have Princess: The Hopeful. (Different WoD, but still applicable). Part of the horror that exists in that game comes from the very FACT that the mission of the Princesses is a massively uphill battle against the world's darkness. That's half the point of the game.

                        But it's even MORE applicable to Mage: The Ascension, which maintains that, with enough willpower, theoretically anything is possible. ALL of the major goals of ALL mage factions are, on paper, dauntingly difficult to achieve. Many don't think that any variety of Mass Ascension is possible. But these Awakened people continue to fight for their vision of an ideal world regardless. There's a reason that It's All Good - Have Faith! is a Paradigm presented in M20. That reason is because, for as bleak as the World of Darkness seems, Optimism still has a place. It still has POWER. And so long as a mage believes that keeping Hope alive will give them that power, it will. That's what Mage is all about: turning sincere Belief into Reality.

                        Take a second, not to dismiss why a mage couldn't possibly gain power from such beliefs, but to ask what kind of person would belief in things like the powers of friendship and love.

                        If you said "a horribly naive person", now ask yourself what kind of person would believe in things like Magic. For a person living in the World of Darkness, the two things might seem equally as ridiculous. Yet mages believe in magic. And at least with Love and Friendship, normal people see those in their everyday lives, and can see how they affect people in profound ways. Can see how folks move heaven and earth in response to them. How they can have Hope, even in times of great darkness. And how that Hope isn't always false.

                        Don't let yourself get hung up on trappings and tropes. Magical girls function by seeing adversity, and saying, "I won't let you beat me, because I have hope, love, and friends by my side!" For some people who Awaken, that kind of attitude may seem like the only reasonable choice. They can edit Reality, after all.


                        Certainly, a magical girl operating in the World of Darkness is facing an uphill battle, where their hopes and beliefs are challenged at every turn. That's okay, because that's where the drama of Mage: The Ascension lies.


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                        • #27
                          I would also like to say that "Magical girls wouldn't work in Mage, because Paradox!" is not a substantive objection. EVERY GROUP in Mage adheres to archetypes that violate the Consensus. (Even the Technocracy is guilty of Vulgarity on occasion.) Wizards throw fireballs, witches ride brooms, mad scientists jump into time machines, and miracle workers heal by laying on hands. Yet the Order of Hermes, Verbana, Society of Ether, and Celestial Chorus are all groups that exist in the WoD. All despite their greatest arts being Vulgar.

                          A magical girl in Mage can totally work. They just have to observe the same sort of care in how they use their Arts as other mages do. Yes, that means saving the flashy transformation sequences for special occasions. But you don't see Hermetics donning their wizard caps and robes everywhere, either. Moreover, given that Mythic Threads are a thing, doing the transformation and assuming the guise of a magical girl could potentially make other magick easier. It's a matter of risk versus reward, as with all Awakened.

                          (I'd also like to remind everyone that Familiars can, with the right investment of chargen points, EAT Paradox for their mage. Meaning that funny animal sidekick the magical girl has serves a greater potential purpose than just to fit the archetype.)


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Zennis View Post

                            I see your point but I feel that the comments i made were on the magical girl in general

                            When I thought of a mage believing, “I am the archetypal magical girl” I thought to myself, “that’s a marauder.”

                            Once the magical girl begins to have an individual paradigm, she stops being an archetypal magical girl and becomes whatever she is according to her individual paradigm.

                            Still, the association with a superhero like figure really makes me think marauder.

                            Any mage who thinks (and I’m not suggesting that magical girls say or think this) “I am a superhero, my magic works because I have superpowers and that’s the only justification I need,” is probably insane or on the path to becoming a marauder.

                            While i agree with you about the individual magical girls having their own beliefs in their individual shows, the magical girl in general strikes me as an archetype that really loans itself to being a marauder.

                            “I need to change costume before I can do my magic, I do this through a magical transformation after which I emerge in a crazy costume”

                            “I need to scream the name of my ‘attack spells’ before they take effect and then I do spectacular damage with vulgar supernatural powers”

                            “I am often accompanied by a strange creature with supernatural intelligence and powers of its own, it may or may not hide this around most people.”

                            “I fight crazy monsters all the time, that’s now normal to me.”

                            “I see myself as a supernatural hero who fights the forces of evil.”

                            “I often use magic wands and other cool stuff to do my magic, I have no idea how this works.”

                            This sounds like a marauder to me.
                            "Why do I believe friendship has power in this grim world? Because no matter how dark things get, the worst of people have one thing in common. They pretend to be your best friend. And if the illusion of friendship has such power, then true friendship must have even more. If more people just believed in it, it could banish all the darkness.

                            Yes I fight crazy monsters, like vampires and werewolves and evil heartless world destroying mages and crazy beasts made by evil corporations. I wouldn't say it's normal to me and it's definitely terrifying, but someone has to.

                            I do know how my magical tools work. They channel the power of love and hope. My three headed stuffed hippopotamus, Cabaron, showed me how to make them. They look like tools from magical girl anime because people watch those anime and think of the tools as symbols of the forces they channel, of course.

                            But of course the darkness tries it's best to hide the light. Sometimes it makes weird things happen to do so, sometimes it's just painful. You have to really pick your moments to transform."

                            Yeah, I don't see the problem.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Zennis View Post

                              I see your point but I feel that the comments i made were on the magical girl in general

                              When I thought of a mage believing, “I am the archetypal magical girl” I thought to myself, “that’s a marauder.”

                              Once the magical girl begins to have an individual paradigm, she stops being an archetypal magical girl and becomes whatever she is according to her individual paradigm.

                              Still, the association with a superhero like figure really makes me think marauder.

                              Any mage who thinks (and I’m not suggesting that magical girls say or think this) “I am a superhero, my magic works because I have superpowers and that’s the only justification I need,” is probably insane or on the path to becoming a marauder.

                              While i agree with you about the individual magical girls having their own beliefs in their individual shows, the magical girl in general strikes me as an archetype that really loans itself to being a marauder.

                              “I need to change costume before I can do my magic, I do this through a magical transformation after which I emerge in a crazy costume”

                              “I need to scream the name of my ‘attack spells’ before they take effect and then I do spectacular damage with vulgar supernatural powers”

                              “I am often accompanied by a strange creature with supernatural intelligence and powers of its own, it may or may not hide this around most people.”

                              “I fight crazy monsters all the time, that’s now normal to me.”

                              “I see myself as a supernatural hero who fights the forces of evil.”

                              “I often use magic wands and other cool stuff to do my magic, I have no idea how this works.”

                              This sounds like a marauder to me.

                              I’m not disagreeing with you Fouran, I’m just putting in my two cents, please don’t take it as me slamming your opinoin or possible love of this genre. If you want to play your mage games with a cabal of magic girls then I say do it.
                              Alternatively, an Imbued who's starting to get deeply affected by the hunt, from seeing too much and/or from developing Virtues beyond 6 dots (which also brings with it the higher power levels of H:tR, such as they are).

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                              • #30
                                Yeah, I don't why a typical Magical Girl's paradigm of friendship is magic couldn't work. If wish magic done by children can work than anything is fair game. I mean, I suppose the Hemetic or Dreamspeaker who spends hours doing extremely complicated rituals and gathering rare materials to create a fireball is going to be annoyed when a 13 year old just screams about friendship for a minute to do the same effect, but I don't there's anything in Mage: The Ascension states that a needs to be complicated to work. So as long as its internally consistent anything goes, right?

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