Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Presenting a Unified Council

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Nilbog
    started a topic Presenting a Unified Council

    Presenting a Unified Council

    Alright, so, for plot reasons, in a game I'm planning, I need the ruling body of the Traditions in the post-Avatar Storm world (presumably but not necessarily a reformed Council of Nine or some similar group) to have a coherent, cross-Tradition agenda and the ability to communicate with and organize other Traditionalists in some way. Obviously not with the level of oversight or coherence as the Technocracy, but I need them to be an actual organization and not just a bunch of mostly unrelated cabals with mostly unrelated business.

    Is there any way to integrate this dynamic into the Post-Avatar Storm metaplot organically?

  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    Do they have anything to do with the Ananasi or Queen Ananasa ?
    None beyond maybe individuals. They took the name more symbolically than anything.

    It's something that has crossed my mind, how they and the Queen would think of the tradition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    Our equivalent was the Anansi Elite. It had to do with not only a nod to the 'web' part of the Digital Web, but the idea of these Vadept-esque defectors were also more 3rd World Technomancers (the Batani's Web of Faith was located in parts of Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia after all) that grew very disillusioned with the Union after WWII. For the 'greater good' of the consensus the European/American dominated Technocrats figured they'd try to keep the colonial empires going. That blew up in their face. So think more Afrofuturism, La Onda and McOndo literature, and the more global thinking cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk than the cola guzzling hacker stereotype or techbro corporate lord of the first world.
    Do they have anything to do with the Ananasi or Queen Ananasa ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Onkwe
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    At the risk of sidetracking this thread (again), may I propose an alternative? How about Plato's Heirs? Plato works better than Mercury because he was instrumental in founding the discipline of mathematics (though Pythagoras still gets the honor of being the “father of mathematics”) and also because he came up with Plato's Cave and the notion of Platonic Forms, both of which match up with the Tradition's view that there's a deeper level of Reality that's composed of information. Indeed, I could easily see “Plato's Heirs” viewing the Digital Web as merely one part of a much larger “Platonic Space”.
    That's pretty cool.

    As for Mercurial Elite, I'm not saying I have a problem with that since my first impression with the name had more to do do with being mercurial in nature than the Greco-Roman God. I don't have a problem with their old name either, but the new one does set the tone for where they're going, and I like that. When they were all just cyberpunk wizards, they felt like one trick ponies.

    Our equivalent was the Anansi Elite. It had to do with not only a nod to the 'web' part of the Digital Web, but the idea of these Vadept-esque defectors were also more 3rd World Technomancers (the Batani's Web of Faith was located in parts of Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia after all) that grew very disillusioned with the Union after WWII. For the 'greater good' of the consensus the European/American dominated Technocrats figured they'd try to keep the colonial empires going. That blew up in their face. So think more Afrofuturism, La Onda and McOndo literature, and the more global thinking cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk than the cola guzzling hacker stereotype or techbro corporate lord of the first world.

    Add: The 'Heirs' part 'Plato's Heirs' has really stuck with me, especially since part of the Anansi Elite's ideals are about equalizing humanity through bringing about a greater connectivity beyond skincolor and geography without one group dominating the other in a colonial relationship. So Anansi's Heirs sounds better in conveying that.
    Last edited by Onkwe; 03-17-2018, 01:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

    Cyberspace is more relevant now than ever, though what “cyberspace” means has shifted. Virtual Reality, at least as envisioned in the netrunning of the cyberpunk sources that were the initial inspiration for the VAs, is outdated. Far from being the next generation of operations system user interfaces, virtual reality is shaping up to be a niche market in the social networks.
    If only there were a major movie coming out about this...

    Suffice to say while I do think the real world is drifting from an imagined future of Virtual reality I feel that place it holds in people's imagination is still there. Its a future being killed by the Technocracy. I wonder if that means Retrofuture cyberpunk should move to the Etherites?


    Not really. House Veritas still uses Hermetic symbology, High Ritual, and various other wizardly trappings; that is, their Practices and Instruments are quite different.
    The Name Mercurial Elite sounds like something someone who is freely mixing VA and Hermetic Practices would call themselves. I am not saying the presentation in M20 presents them as such but the title sounds more like a hybrid group.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Nilbog
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Read my recent posts: I'm not defending the “Mercurial Elite” name change so much as I'm defending the Tradition's philosophical changes. I even suggested a different name.
    Fair. Sorry to misinterpret your statement. I'm fine with the more information oriented theming of the Tradition (honestly, back when they were just computer geeks it seemed a little hard to justify them being separate from the Etherites anyway), it's just the new name I can't stand.

    Personally, if I had a say, I would have gone with "The Cryptic League".

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Read my recent posts: I'm not defending the “Mercurial Elite” name change so much as I'm defending the Tradition's philosophical changes. I even suggested a different name.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Nilbog
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post

    Cyberspace is more relevant now than ever, though what “cyberspace” means has shifted. Virtual Reality, at least as envisioned in the netrunning of the cyberpunk sources that were the initial inspiration for the VAs, is outdated. Far from being the next generation of operations system user interfaces, virtual reality is shaping up to be a niche market in the social networks.

    Furthermore, even the Virtual Adepts Revised Tradition Book was shifting the Tradition away from being the “digital world Tradition” to being more generally about Information. They're also a more mystical Tradition than their original conception. M20's VAs follow in those footsteps; and while I've been pointing out how the New Millennium versions of the Traditions aren't precisely the same as their predecessors, the Mercurial Elite really aren't that much of a shift from where the VAs were when the World of Darkness went on hiatus.
    And so they responded by changing the name from something that seemed corny and outdated to something that meant absolutely nothing? I mean, if we want to shift their focus to a more general "flow of information" or "just do the math" paradigm, I can still think of about a billion different names more evocative and relevant than "The Mercurial Elite". Nobody on the internet unironically calls themselves "elite" or, god forbid, "leet" anymore anyway. And bringing Mercury into it seems like a stretch.

    It would be like if they changed the name of the Celestial Chorus to "the Empyreal Dedicants". Yeah, you could contrive an in-universe rationale for why the name makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact that the name doesn't really convey anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Weirdboyz View Post
    I just don't see how virtual reality has become outdated. In fact, the idea of virtual reality and virtual spaces is becoming more a technological reality that will achieve sooner rather than later.

    Also a name like Mercurial Elite to me seems to be going over the same thematic territory that the Order of Hermes already covers.
    Cyberspace is more relevant now than ever, though what “cyberspace” means has shifted. Virtual Reality, at least as envisioned in the netrunning of the cyberpunk sources that were the initial inspiration for the VAs, is outdated. Far from being the next generation of operations system user interfaces, virtual reality is shaping up to be a niche market in the social networks.

    Furthermore, even the Virtual Adepts Revised Tradition Book was shifting the Tradition away from being the “digital world Tradition” to being more generally about Information. They're also a more mystical Tradition than their original conception. M20's VAs follow in those footsteps; and while I've been pointing out how the New Millennium versions of the Traditions aren't precisely the same as their predecessors, the Mercurial Elite really aren't that much of a shift from where the VAs were when the World of Darkness went on hiatus.

    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Honestly the ME sounds like a cabal of house Veritus, or some sort of hybrid VA/Hermetic offshoot.
    Not really. House Veritas still uses Hermetic symbology, High Ritual, and various other wizardly trappings; that is, their Practices and Instruments are quite different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Weirdboyz View Post
    I just don't see how virtual reality has become outdated. In fact, the idea of virtual reality and virtual spaces is becoming more a technological reality that will achieve sooner rather than later.

    Also a name like Mercurial Elite to me seems to be going over the same thematic territory that the Order of Hermes already covers.

    Honestly the ME sounds like a cabal of house Veritus, or some sort of hybrid VA/Hermetic offshoot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Weirdboyz
    replied
    I just don't see how virtual reality has become outdated. In fact, the idea of virtual reality and virtual spaces is becoming more a technological reality that will achieve sooner rather than later.

    Also a name like Mercurial Elite to me seems to be going over the same thematic territory that the Order of Hermes already covers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    I have had this impression since a long time that the Mercurial Elite is some sort of schismatic or off-shot group of Virtual Adepts, rather than being Virtual Adepts under a new name.
    The group has the same Paradigm(s) and Foci as the Virtual Adepts, but very different goals, outlook(s) , attitude, and methods. Maybe the XXI century's Virtual Adepts decided to form the Mercurial Elite ; or perhaps it consists of veteran Virtual Adepts from the 70s, 60s, and earlier.
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 03-15-2018, 04:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    At the risk of sidetracking this thread (again), may I propose an alternative? How about Plato's Heirs? Plato works better than Mercury because he was instrumental in founding the discipline of mathematics (though Pythagoras still gets the honor of being the “father of mathematics”) and also because he came up with Plato's Cave and the notion of Platonic Forms, both of which match up with the Tradition's view that there's a deeper level of Reality that's composed of information. Indeed, I could easily see “Plato's Heirs” viewing the Digital Web as merely one part of a much larger “Platonic Space”.
    As fitting as the philosophies of Plato might be to the mindset of this tradition, I’m not sure it properly conveys the tone that has always set the adepts/elite apart from the other traditions.

    These guys don’t take themselves nearly as seriously as the other traditions do. Theirs is a society built on one-upmanship and discovery. Information is their currency, and flippancy is their language. Their main mission is to ascend via reality 2.0. And that means taking the virtual web out of the confining hands of the technocracy and encouraging the sleepers to take control of things themselves. They are the guys who look at 4chan and call it quaint, tame, a good starting point perhaps.

    They might look at the world as being made of data, but that’s just one paradigm, not their whole ethos. They are the mind magic through memes, the hackers of the genetic code, and chaos mages coding viruses. Now that the internet is truly global, their reach and influence through it is even greater than it ever was before. This should be embraced rather than pushed away as something of a bygone era.
    Last edited by Saikou; 03-15-2018, 05:47 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
    Mercurial Elite is to get away from the Cyberdork view of the tradition, showing how it's evolved more into a math and "data is everything" tradition. Though we already have a tradition named after that particular Greco-Roman god.
    At the risk of sidetracking this thread (again), may I propose an alternative? How about Plato's Heirs? Plato works better than Mercury because he was instrumental in founding the discipline of mathematics (though Pythagoras still gets the honor of being the “father of mathematics”) and also because he came up with Plato's Cave and the notion of Platonic Forms, both of which match up with the Tradition's view that there's a deeper level of Reality that's composed of information. Indeed, I could easily see “Plato's Heirs” viewing the Digital Web as merely one part of a much larger “Platonic Space”.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dataweaver
    replied
    It's worth noting that when Brucato was approached to do M20, his original thought was to do a “New Millennium” update to the setting. But he was convinced that the purpose of M20 should primarily be as a retrospective on Mage — something designed to celebrate the game's history and to heal the rift in the fanbase by acknowledging all prior editions of the game and their contributions.

    That said, he still gave us a taste of what he had in mind for his New Millennium setting, where he intends to take the game if given the chance. The New Horizon Council is part of that, as is the nascent Disparate Alliance and the imminent Technocratic reorganization. And if ParaWolf decides to put Brucato in charge of Mage 5e, I have no doubt that he'll go all in with his New Millennium.

    So yeah; the new names for the Traditions are given as alternatives rather than defaults, for the “default” pre-“New Millennium” setting of M20. But where the New Horizon Council is concerned, they're more than that: they're part of the reconceptualization of the Traditions that makes the new Council what it is. All of the name changes correspond with changes in how each of the rechristened Traditions see itself, with the Chakravanti being the most blatant example. But as Onkwe points out, the other renamings have meaning to them, too.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X