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  • #16
    Originally posted by Warpwind View Post
    However, in that case TF would be far more widespread among mages then the books indicate, as most of mystic mages interact with deities and spirits on regular bases and use them in practicies.
    Yeah, I agree with theoutlander523 as well.
    It needs to be strongly stressed that True Faith is not a casual thing. At all.
    Its very first level already is the root of a road to extremism in your faith. You aren't just faithful, you try to embody it with every breath you take and any word you speak, and any little doubt in your faith is a step back. The end of the road "True Faith 5" is an absolute, unreasonable extremist. Unreasonable in the way that they will probably deny anything contrary to their faith, no matter how factual it is. An extreme even among the most faithful.

    In theory, as scary as the idea might be, all Exemplars should probably have True Faith. They are literal embodyments of their Sphere - you can't get more hardcore in your Paradigm in Mage terms than that. They're at a dead end, but man is it an intense and powerful one.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
      In my opinion True Faith works well in Mage, since it shows how really powerful belief in a religious figure or ideal can give you a different kind of power which follows different rules. One which is less reliable but potentially more potent, and is more mysterious and rare. Thematically it's neat. But one niggle is this feeling that practically ALL Choristers should have 1 dot in True Faith; if they don't, then that feels weird.
      You see, I know thta the books suggest they should be the most faithful faction, but I have a problem with that: Why Choristers would have more Faith than Verbena or Dreamspeakers?. Aren't native american's beliefs or ideals powerful enough?, or should I understand that those are also represented within the tradition with a white priest as poster figure?.

      Choristers are characterized for their monotheism, even when they preach politeistic religions they always hide a monotheistic aspect (there's a few Induists - they're actually monotheists. They have very few followers of ancient religions, but these always concentrate on a single god, like Mithraists with Mithras). Verbena are characterized by following true politheism, without falling into "The One" argument.

      And since you say Ideals: Technocracy it's arguably the most idealistic faction out there. Idealism and it's often criticized pitfalls of loosing sight of reality and thinking that the (utopical) ends justify the means are well represented by them.

      What feels weird to me it's to say (like their Trad Book does) that the Faithful Tradition that should represent every belief in the world from vodun to buddism and even abstract ideals are the the ones that are mostly known for their belief on "The One" ... You know, the ones that always have a priest as picture in the character creation chapter even when they're suposed to allow other "minoritary" beliefs to join- only to be seen in their Trad Book. The ones that for some odd reason are blamed by the Verbena about the Inquisition. The ones that are criticized for being a mostly european faction, while getting endless complaints about how they treat other beliefs from the factions that actually have characters activelly following non-monotheistic, non-european, religions(and even from some who do follow monotheism, like the Lions).

      Why was that these guys should be the poster figure of ALL Faith again? . Because as far as representing that christians aren't the only ones with Faith goes, they do a pretty bad job.

      True Faith's conditionality is also neat. A Mage can have a chance encounter with anyone with Entropy, but True Faith lets you find yourself by chance at the side of a friend in need.
      Why a friend in need and not a weakened enemy or a random person in need of guidance?. It's almost like Faith was nice or about hope...

      It isn't.

      A Mage can heal anyone with Life, but trying to use True Faith to heal yourself while murdering a bunch of orphans is definitely going to fail (unless your faith is in... Baralgamoth the Child Eater or something like that).
      Moloch would do.

      Faith wasn't always nice. Faith wasn't always related with "goodwill". In other words, Faith, especially the old faith, isn't about the things that Celestial Chorus Tradition book cherishes so much in their 1ยบ chapter (the one that talks about hope, love and all those nice things)

      True Faith conditionality it's Storyteller's fiat. What it provides for certain are things like expelling vampires with a sacred symbol (great if you're christian, not so great for other religions with different thematics. A voudun priest may well be able to control the undead, but why should that be represented by movings something in front of a vampire and it being forced to retreat?). Also detecting heatens, healing, exorcism, warding places, making evil beings scream when you say the "holly words" of the religion - because we all know all religions value words the same...All things that can be adapted with more or less effort to other faiths but sometimes don't feel so natural for them as they are for christians...and this hapens because the Merit has been adapted from Vampire.

      Personally I think a good change to True Faith would be to have it as conditional bonus Arete. In situations which are appropriate based on your faith you can spend a point of Willpower and add your True Faith rating (it could be a 2x cost background) to your Arete. So TF won't let you heal without Life, but it will let you do it much better than you could otherwise if you're healing for the right reasons.
      That's a good idea. The problems I have with TF come from a list of common milacres and "suggestions" - like you being able to practice exorcisms - that have a very strong christian vive. If it's just a reward for playing really close to your Paradigm I would like it a lot more.

      Just don't make it a Chorister thing. They do a fine job being the monotheistic semitic faction. They don't do such a good job representing the rest
      Last edited by Aleph; 09-03-2018, 10:22 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

        Yeah, I agree with theoutlander523 as well.
        It needs to be strongly stressed that True Faith is not a casual thing. At all.
        Its very first level already is the root of a road to extremism in your faith. You aren't just faithful, you try to embody it with every breath you take and any word you speak, and any little doubt in your faith is a step back. The end of the road "True Faith 5" is an absolute, unreasonable extremist. Unreasonable in the way that they will probably deny anything contrary to their faith, no matter how factual it is. An extreme even among the most faithful.

        In theory, as scary as the idea might be, all Exemplars should probably have True Faith. They are literal embodyments of their Sphere - you can't get more hardcore in your Paradigm in Mage terms than that. They're at a dead end, but man is it an intense and powerful one.
        Ooh it would be good to emphasize that they're not on a road to Ascension; they're closing themselves off and choosing the path to becoming an Archmage, choosing power and certainty and ZEAL over opening themselves up to reality's mysteries. They're the dunning krueger effect personified; why bother trying to learn when you already KNOW?

        To them, a Chorister Christian who looks at the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, understanding the Abrahamic and philosophical links, and gleans some wisdom from another great religious teacher in history, is abhorrent. The same goes for a Christian who studies the works of the Buddha or apocryphal gospels. There's the good book, and the works of saints, and that's it. Raising their Arete and True Faith is just greater mastery of a powerful trap, the trap of power itself.

        They could gradually slip into the type of Quiet where you are absolutely certain and don't leave room for error... it used to be called Clarity, I think M20 renamed it since it's anything but clarity to lock all dissenting opinion out.

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