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Do Gilguls and vamps mean the number of Avatars in the universe is slowly decreasing?

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  • #16
    But if you are gilguling and embracing, which gilguls avatars, then it doesn't make sense since more then 1000 people have been gilguled/embraced.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      But if you are gilguling and embracing, which gilguls avatars, then it doesn't make sense since more then 1000 people have been gilguled/embraced.

      That assumes Avatar incarnation follows linear time as we percieve it rather than is traveling through a cycle outside our perception that will inevitably lead to their point in destruction. Perhaps at the point of gigul/embrace all of time is bent around it so all incarnations that ever have or ever would be are embraced/giguled


      That is to say Avatars are weird and trying to make an easy judgement call on them with gigul, the embrace or whatever is not going to happen.

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      • #18
        Yeah but each avatar can only be Gilguled once even with time travel...


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          Yeah but each avatar can only be Gilguled once even with time travel...
          If for them Time moves forward. If the Timestream, is reversed for them, then Gilgul is always something that will happen to them, but not yet.


          So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
            If for them Time moves forward. If the Timestream, is reversed for them, then Gilgul is always something that will happen to them, but not yet.
            Yes but what I am saying is you can't gilgul a soul twice even with time travel, so that limits the amount of souls because a lot of vampires have been around, much more then 1k, and that means you can't have only 1k avatars because more then 1k have been gilguled.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #21
              Logically, you would need at least as many Avatars as new vampires. Unless:
              A. Not all people has an Avatar
              B. Vampires don't actually gilgul avatars.

              B it's stated in Masters of the Art, Blood Treachery doesn't actually contradict this because the Embrace needs to kill the mage (at wich point the Avatar leaves the body) while being a Ghoul (which causes Gilgul according to that book, but not according to Black Hand) doesn't send the Avatar away (allowing it to be corrupted by the blood). I'm sure there are books where it was stated that Embrace caused gilgul, but Mage does contradict itself a lot. I preffer MotA school of tought

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              • #22
                Unless Avatars can co-locate through time. Of course, being at many dates "at the same time" sounds illogical, but perhaps Avatars travel independant of the flow of time, starting at a point beyond time, and intersecting with several points of the flow of time at the same "moment" relative to the avatar (like if they were many time travelers instead of one). Then, as Lian suggested, when the Embrace happens Fate arranges that every "copy" of the Avatar intersecting with one timeline get's Embraced or Gilguled (not at the same "date", of course, but rather at the same "age" of the Avatar).

                But I still preffer the idea that Embrace does not cause gilgul, just death and rebirth into something monstrous and pretty much as far from Ascencion as one can be
                Last edited by Aleph; 04-13-2018, 04:03 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  Yes but what I am saying is you can't gilgul a soul twice even with time travel, so that limits the amount of souls because a lot of vampires have been around, much more then 1k, and that means you can't have only 1k avatars because more then 1k have been gilguled.
                  I understood what you meant.

                  I'll try to explain what I meant.
                  If the past of the neonate vampire is the future of the avatar(because time flows backwards for them) then the Gilgul is not affecting the Avatars ability to interact with the future of the common timeline.
                  Now imagine that Avatars decay according to their timeflow and it is a working theory.
                  Of course they can “remember“ previous incarnations by seeing into their future.
                  The only effect of Gilgul in this hypothesis is that it can't scry “past“ the Gilgul anymore.


                  So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                  • #24
                    I'm fond enough of Karl Edward Wagner's "Beyond Any Measure" to want a vampire meeting the current reincarnation of their long-lost soul to be a distinct possibility. Might as well throw Gilgul on the same bandwagon.

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                    • #25
                      assuming gilgul does not destroy the avatar(and keep in my no other magic can really "destroy" anything) then it could be argued that
                      the avatar's past life memories are all wiped out and thus it becomes a "new" avatar thus most mages imagine it is "gone"

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                      • #26
                        Ive always imaginated that gilgul broke the connection between a higher concept and the reality, the avatar being on that connection.

                        Example : if Excalibur was a powerful physical avatar, and if it were to go through gilgul, i would imagine the sword becoming powerless. However, the higher concept of excalibur, being " the symbol of power given to the choosen one " could link to another worthy reality anchor, like the medal of the first modern olympic games .. and gives a huge amount of power to a new mage.
                        Last edited by RandyRando; 04-22-2018, 03:55 PM. Reason: typo

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                        • #27
                          I was recently pondering this only recently, so great to read up thoughts about it. I've briefly toyed with the idea of having the Pure Ones (whatever they are) play a more prominent role in my forthcoming game, maybe allow a bit influence to seep through. This led me to consider whether gilgul was destroying shards of Pure Ones, and whether this would result in more Avatars subtly influencing each Mage with a tiny bit more anger, pain and confusion, creating a worsening WoD?
                          As Nonesense wrote
                          “Why should I decide what the truth is? The Tellurian is not consistent (at least in mage) why should I?“
                          I am probably trying to do too much to prepare my forthcoming game, and I guess trying to tackle such a big mystery is not advisable when they are so many other things TODO

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                          • #28
                            I'd been meaning of replying to this thread for some time but I've been putting it off. I think this question can be approached with math. Now, if you think that the Sum of all avatars is God or godlike, then I'd argue that the Sum is infinite. Imagine it like a set of infinite numbers. When you destroy an avatar, you don't lessen the number of avatars, just their variance. Example: your avatar is the number 2. All avatars are the set of integers. You are embraced. All avatars are the set of real integers excluding 2. Still infinite. Yet "smaller" in a sense, less varied. That way, when an avatar is destroyed, an aspect of reality (or potential) falls with it, but reality itself is still infinite.

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                            • #29
                              Thought on Gilgul... doesn't it seem kind of Qlippothic by nature?

                              For Gilgul to work, you need to degrade and fracture the seed of creation and cast it into nothingness. I mean you might not describe it like that, but you are blending up a Mage's primal spiritual power and throwing it out of known reality. Sounds pretty Qlippothic.

                              So... as a potential twist for a Mage game... Gilgul is a Qlippothic rote. The act relies entirely on a Descension based paradigm, and it can only be performed if you are tainted by the force of undoing.

                              "That's absurd. That would mean that all of the senior Mages in the Traditions who have performed the rite are-"

                              "... Go on?" The stranger smiles as the penny drops.

                              "Oh no."
                              Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-10-2018, 07:39 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                                Thought on Gilgul... doesn't it seem kind of Qlippothic by nature?

                                For Gilgul to work, you need to degrade and fracture the seed of creation and cast it into nothingness. I mean you might not describe it like that, but you are blending up a Mage's primal spiritual power and throwing it out of known reality. Sounds pretty Qlippothic.

                                So... as a potential twist for a Mage game... Gilgul is a Qlippothic rote. The act relies entirely on a Descension based paradigm, and it can only be performed if you are tainted by the force of undoing.

                                "That's absurd. That would mean that all of the senior Mages in the Traditions who have performed the rite are-"

                                "... Go on?" The stranger smiles as the penny drops.

                                "Oh no."

                                That has the necessary horror aspect for a WoD game, so it's pretty interesting, but I seem to remember gilgul requiring some kind of component (I remember soul eater, but that brings traumatic memories from the Black Hand book, so I am unsure). So the Qliphotic part might be the component.

                                On the other hand, the fact that gilguling someone is usually something you have to do against your avatar's wishes hints towards your view.

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