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Do Gilguls and vamps mean the number of Avatars in the universe is slowly decreasing?

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  • Do Gilguls and vamps mean the number of Avatars in the universe is slowly decreasing?

    Yes, I know Gilguls are rarely performed, but they do happen at a slow, but steady rate. Also, things like being vamped supposedly gilgul people. So does that mean that the total number of avatars in the universe is constantly decreasing, or are new ones being created?

  • Aleph
    replied
    ​​Rules as written, Gilgul isn't Qlippothic. So don't worry about that.

    Gilgul can't be Qlippothic, RAW, because it's mentioned as something you can do with Spirit 5 in the Basic - if a player has Spirit 5 and no problem conceptualizing avatar destruction within Paradigm (regardless if that's regarded as evil or not), he's has every right to roll his dice to do a Gilgul. Answering: "well, you need to get an inverted avatar before you can do that" would be against the rules (unless you make a house rule) because magick that's explicitly mentioned under a Sphere entry never needs any other "material" or "prerequisite" to be casted (unless Paradigm deems it necessary, and Paradigm it's entirely under player's control)

    The whole: Gilgul is Qlippothic it's a hack to create a particular narrative that may be interesting to build a story. Under that hack, what Hermetics would preffer to believe doesn't matter: The Traditions were leaded by Nephandi from the very beginning and most or all the OoH Founders were Nephandi. But of course that's not canon. It's just a way to use the setting in a slightly different way.

    And about souls being permanently destroyed or not - that's a mystery for the Storyteller to decide, as you say.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gabriel
    replied
    I just found this thread and the discussion ist interesting. I´ll try to revive this. Here are my thoughts on this:

    The Gilgul Rite was invented by the Order of Hermes, namely Guernicus the first of House Quaesitor and checked by Bonisagus himself. That´s why the Rite or rote itself cannot be nephandic. It is even arguable that it really destroys the Avatar as the Tradition Book states the reluctance of the mages at the time to destroy something made by God/ the Creator.
    The original description of the Rite, as recorded by the Order, was: " dissmisses the offenders immortal Soul to another plane, there to face judgement of the Creator, rendering him like unto an animal an thus incapable of even the lowliest act of mystic prowess."

    The intention of Guernicus however was to destroy it, So it is difficult to say what really happens with the Avatar after the Rite.
    If it was Qlippothic the whole orders foundation had to be nephandic. I argue that they were not xD

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Gabriel; 07-07-2018, 06:24 AM.

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  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    Although, given that Gilgul is so often used against them specifically, I can totally see Nephandi spreading the IDEA that performing the rite automatically makes a mage Fall. Both to make mages squeemish about learning and/or using it, and to sow dissent in the ranks of other sects by making mages distrustful of their leaders. As well as to perhaps trick mages who HAVE performed the rite into entering the Cauls, on the grounds that they've been lead to believe they are already doomed. This seems like just the kind of con the Nephandi would pull, in the name of their war against everything.
    Yeah, there are a few ways to spin this. Think of it like the Nephandic Victory metaplot.

    1: The Nephandi are in control of the two sects, and have practically won at this point. Good luck.

    2: The Nephandi have some control over the two sects, yes, but they are far from victory.

    3: The Nephandi have not got any significant control of the Traditions or Technocracy... but they would love you to think that they did. The Disparates and other Mages believing that (1) or (2) is true is likely the result of Nephandic influence in 3. To quote M20; "isn't paranoia fun!"

    So for this Gilgul idea...

    1: Gilgul is a rote which is arguably evil, and is clearly very nasty, but it has not intrinsic link to the Nephandi. However, Nephandi will happily spread the idea that using Gilgul corrupts the soul and dooms a Mage, that Nephandic Avatars are immune to Gilgul in reality and will simply return (stronger!), and that other Avatars subjugated to the rite are in fact being sent to the Cauls. Furthermore, they might claim that innocent Mages who have used the rote *are* fallen to promote infighting.

    2: Gilgul does push a Mage towards becoming corrupted in some sense, possibly culminating in becoming a Nephandus. Part of the Nephandi's "5D Chess" is tricking the Traditions into using it on pawns and the horrific patsies they put out onto the board.

    3: Gilgul is a Nephandic rote. In order to use it you must already be Fallen. Yes, that means (1) or (2) from the Nephandic Victory metaplot must be true, and has been true for quite a while now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluecho
    replied
    First, I don't think Gilgul is stated as annihilating an Avatar. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it involves shredding the Avatar, then casting those shreds to the four winds. If that were true, then Gilgul wouldn't require Qlippothic magic.

    Second, the Nephandi do not have a monopoly on the concept of destruction. Destruction - even obliteration - can fit into any number of different Paradigms, and not be this grand statement or value judgement. The Nephandi have their Qlippothic Spheres because they've been SO twisted, they can ONLY destroy. Annihilation isn't just a concept to them, it's the only concept that matters.

    If regular characters can use high level Prime to unmake objects (or people), and not automatically Descend, then the people behind Gilgul are probably fine.

    Although, given that Gilgul is so often used against them specifically, I can totally see Nephandi spreading the IDEA that performing the rite automatically makes a mage Fall. Both to make mages squeemish about learning and/or using it, and to sow dissent in the ranks of other sects by making mages distrustful of their leaders. As well as to perhaps trick mages who HAVE performed the rite into entering the Cauls, on the grounds that they've been lead to believe they are already doomed. This seems like just the kind of con the Nephandi would pull, in the name of their war against everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    So if a Tradition Mage considers it true or possible that Gilgul is a rote put into the Traditions by "those evil Nephandi", then the rote suddenly provokes an "Oh no" reaction ( From I assume a startled Tradition Mage...who is the smiling stranger, anyway ? ) and shouldn't be used ? Shouldn't Tradition Mages figure out by themselves that something like Gilgul should not be done at all ; rather than needing a "related to the Nephandi" reason to try to make it so that it is not used at all on anyone by Tradition Mages ?
    The idea is that in order to use the rote, you *must* be Fallen. He's responding to that with an "oh no" since he is aware that many high-ranking Mages in the Traditions have been known to use the power in extreme circumstances. Such a twist would only be appropriate in a Nephandic Victory metaplot, however, where they have subverted and infected almost everything to the point of victory.

    Furthermore, the rote being tainted would call into question its use entirely. If the rote were Nephandic in origin, then what happens to the Inverted Avatars who are subjected to it? Are we to believe they are destroyed? Or do they simply recycle, creating Widderslainte?

    And what about pure Avatars who are simply being cast out because of the crimes of their Mage? Are they utterly destroyed? That's bad enough but what if Gilgul were an elaborate way of sending an Avatar to the Cauls? I think a really great ST should be ready to add behind-the-scenes secrets which aren't in the books, to add mystery for those who have read everything.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-14-2018, 09:49 AM.

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  • Ambrosia
    replied
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    So if a Tradition Mage considers it true or possible that Gilgul is a rote put into the Traditions by "those evil Nephandi", then the rote suddenly provokes an "Oh no" reaction ( From I assume a startled Tradition Mage...who is the smiling stranger, anyway ? ) and shouldn't be used ? Shouldn't Tradition Mages figure out by themselves that something like Gilgul should not be done at all ; rather than needing a "related to the Nephandi" reason to try to make it so that it is not used at all on anyone by Tradition Mages ?
    Let me give you a hint:
    The "Oh No" was not a response to Gilgul being a bad thing...

    Leave a comment:


  • Muad'Dib
    replied
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Thought on Gilgul... doesn't it seem kind of Qlippothic by nature?

    For Gilgul to work, you need to degrade and fracture the seed of creation and cast it into nothingness. I mean you might not describe it like that, but you are blending up a Mage's primal spiritual power and throwing it out of known reality. Sounds pretty Qlippothic.

    So... as a potential twist for a Mage game... Gilgul is a Qlippothic rote. The act relies entirely on a Descension based paradigm, and it can only be performed if you are tainted by the force of undoing.

    "That's absurd. That would mean that all of the senior Mages in the Traditions who have performed the rite are-"

    "... Go on?" The stranger smiles as the penny drops.

    "Oh no."
    So if a Tradition Mage considers it true or possible that Gilgul is a rote put into the Traditions by "those evil Nephandi", then the rote suddenly provokes an "Oh no" reaction ( From I assume a startled Tradition Mage...who is the smiling stranger, anyway ? ) and shouldn't be used ? Shouldn't Tradition Mages figure out by themselves that something like Gilgul should not be done at all ; rather than needing a "related to the Nephandi" reason to try to make it so that it is not used at all on anyone by Tradition Mages ?
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 05-14-2018, 05:40 AM.

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  • Lateral.Psychotropy
    replied
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Thought on Gilgul... doesn't it seem kind of Qlippothic by nature?

    For Gilgul to work, you need to degrade and fracture the seed of creation and cast it into nothingness. I mean you might not describe it like that, but you are blending up a Mage's primal spiritual power and throwing it out of known reality. Sounds pretty Qlippothic.

    So... as a potential twist for a Mage game... Gilgul is a Qlippothic rote. The act relies entirely on a Descension based paradigm, and it can only be performed if you are tainted by the force of undoing.

    "That's absurd. That would mean that all of the senior Mages in the Traditions who have performed the rite are-"

    "... Go on?" The stranger smiles as the penny drops.

    "Oh no."

    That has the necessary horror aspect for a WoD game, so it's pretty interesting, but I seem to remember gilgul requiring some kind of component (I remember soul eater, but that brings traumatic memories from the Black Hand book, so I am unsure). So the Qliphotic part might be the component.

    On the other hand, the fact that gilguling someone is usually something you have to do against your avatar's wishes hints towards your view.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Thought on Gilgul... doesn't it seem kind of Qlippothic by nature?

    For Gilgul to work, you need to degrade and fracture the seed of creation and cast it into nothingness. I mean you might not describe it like that, but you are blending up a Mage's primal spiritual power and throwing it out of known reality. Sounds pretty Qlippothic.

    So... as a potential twist for a Mage game... Gilgul is a Qlippothic rote. The act relies entirely on a Descension based paradigm, and it can only be performed if you are tainted by the force of undoing.

    "That's absurd. That would mean that all of the senior Mages in the Traditions who have performed the rite are-"

    "... Go on?" The stranger smiles as the penny drops.

    "Oh no."
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-10-2018, 07:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lateral.Psychotropy
    replied
    I'd been meaning of replying to this thread for some time but I've been putting it off. I think this question can be approached with math. Now, if you think that the Sum of all avatars is God or godlike, then I'd argue that the Sum is infinite. Imagine it like a set of infinite numbers. When you destroy an avatar, you don't lessen the number of avatars, just their variance. Example: your avatar is the number 2. All avatars are the set of integers. You are embraced. All avatars are the set of real integers excluding 2. Still infinite. Yet "smaller" in a sense, less varied. That way, when an avatar is destroyed, an aspect of reality (or potential) falls with it, but reality itself is still infinite.

    Leave a comment:


  • Batjutsu
    replied
    I was recently pondering this only recently, so great to read up thoughts about it. I've briefly toyed with the idea of having the Pure Ones (whatever they are) play a more prominent role in my forthcoming game, maybe allow a bit influence to seep through. This led me to consider whether gilgul was destroying shards of Pure Ones, and whether this would result in more Avatars subtly influencing each Mage with a tiny bit more anger, pain and confusion, creating a worsening WoD?
    As Nonesense wrote
    “Why should I decide what the truth is? The Tellurian is not consistent (at least in mage) why should I?“
    I am probably trying to do too much to prepare my forthcoming game, and I guess trying to tackle such a big mystery is not advisable when they are so many other things TODO

    Leave a comment:


  • RandyRando
    replied
    Ive always imaginated that gilgul broke the connection between a higher concept and the reality, the avatar being on that connection.

    Example : if Excalibur was a powerful physical avatar, and if it were to go through gilgul, i would imagine the sword becoming powerless. However, the higher concept of excalibur, being " the symbol of power given to the choosen one " could link to another worthy reality anchor, like the medal of the first modern olympic games .. and gives a huge amount of power to a new mage.
    Last edited by RandyRando; 04-22-2018, 03:55 PM. Reason: typo

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  • mark
    replied
    assuming gilgul does not destroy the avatar(and keep in my no other magic can really "destroy" anything) then it could be argued that
    the avatar's past life memories are all wiped out and thus it becomes a "new" avatar thus most mages imagine it is "gone"

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I'm fond enough of Karl Edward Wagner's "Beyond Any Measure" to want a vampire meeting the current reincarnation of their long-lost soul to be a distinct possibility. Might as well throw Gilgul on the same bandwagon.

    Leave a comment:

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