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Real Life Examples for the Traditions

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  • #16
    Virtual Adepts (one of the more difficult ones, seeing as I am strongly adverse to using people who are still alive): Adam Smith, John Locke, Voltaire, Charles Babbage, Ada Lovelace, Samual Morse (kind of; I admit this is mostly just because I like the idea of an Adept who is also a portrait painter), Hedy Lamarr, Alan Turing, Jane Fawcett,


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Thinking_Point View Post
      Euthanatos: OK In have never really understood this tradition , so real life examples will be really helpful for me.
      Their basic idea is that there is a Great Wheel of Life, Death and Rebirth that underpins the universe/creation, and that when people suffer guilt, shame, and other negative emotions, or become spiritually corrupt, it interferes with the process of their souls being cleansed and getting closer to enlightenment during each turn on the Wheel. As divine agents of Karma/Fate/Destiny, it is their duty to tend to the Wheel and shepherd people and souls along their journey. They are as much healers and spiritual guides as they are assassins and destroyers. If you were to sum them up in a single word/concept, it would probably be "Psychopomps".

      As far as real world people that might be considered as possible followers, it's hard to find real life (as opposed to mythological) followers of the various Celtic/pre-Christian Irish, Nordic, Mayan, African and Greek Chthonian practices the Tradition draws on. Indian/Hindu ones are a little easier, but even that is difficult without being knowledgable of the culture. A few possibilities are the Maharishi Parashara, the philosopher Diogenes (maybe), and Julian the Apostate (again, maybe). Just taking their role as healers into account, I'll throw the likes of Charaka, Pedanius Dioscorides, Paul of Aegina, Virdimuna of Catania, and Florence Nightingale, as a few random possibilities.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

        Their basic idea is that there is a Great Wheel of Life, Death and Rebirth that underpins the universe/creation, and that when people suffer guilt, shame, and other negative emotions, or become spiritually corrupt, it interferes with the process of their souls being cleansed and getting closer to enlightenment during each turn on the Wheel. As divine agents of Karma/Fate/Destiny, it is their duty to tend to the Wheel and shepherd people and souls along their journey. They are as much healers and spiritual guides as they are assassins and destroyers. If you were to sum them up in a single word/concept, it would probably be "Psychopomps".

        As far as real world people that might be considered as possible followers, it's hard to find real life (as opposed to mythological) followers of the various Celtic/pre-Christian Irish, Nordic, Mayan, African and Greek Chthonian practices the Tradition draws on. Indian/Hindu ones are a little easier, but even that is difficult without being knowledgable of the culture. A few possibilities are the Maharishi Parashara, the philosopher Diogenes (maybe), and Julian the Apostate (again, maybe). Just taking their role as healers into account, I'll throw the likes of Charaka, Pedanius Dioscorides, Paul of Aegina, Virdimuna of Catania, and Florence Nightingale, as a few random possibilities.
        You just helped me pinpoint my problem with the Euthanatoi: Most traditions represent categories of magical/religious/scientific practice. The Dreamspeakers represent shamanistic religions. The Celestial Chorus represents ecclesiastical religions. The Order of Hermes represents ceremonial magic. The Verbena are are a tacit ghetto for white Dreamspeakers, which is arbitrary, but not less so than RL racism, so it kinda makes sense.

        The Euthanatoi represent a specialty that exists within any magical or religious practice. Practically everyone has funerals and believes in an afterlife, so having death as a theme doesn't give them much of a flavor.

        I guess the way I would handle them is like a benevolent Chthulhu cult, or the League of Assassins in the DC universe. They're a global conspiracy that may date back to the first funerary practices. Oh, Iteration X may claim to be "spiritually descended" from those who invented fire, but every group of mages but the Euthanatoi have schismed and gotten mixed up with sleeper politics a whole lot since then. The Euthanatoi aloneremain as impartial as the Grim Reaper.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post
          The Verbena are are a tacit ghetto for white Dreamspeakers, which is arbitrary, but not less so than RL racism, so it kinda makes sense.
          Have you never heard of Norse and Celtic paganistic mythology? Celtic druids run sacred rituals all over the UK to this day, and Celtic celebrations are frequently practiced with covens and circles both open and closed. These beliefs outspan the history of Abrahamic religions and developed independently from other forms of shamanism around the world, so I’m not sure it’s accurate to call it just “white shamanism” as if the verbena were some how a form of appropriation of African/Caribbean/aboriginal Australian/Native american/Central American/Shinto Japanese/South Pacific/etc shamanism

          Also, I recommend reading the Eurhanatos book to understand how they aren’t simply a death cult, but actually have deep roots in the philosophies of reincarnation such as taught from within the Hindu religion. There’s a reason their largest sect are called the chakravanti after all.
          Last edited by Saikou; 04-24-2018, 06:29 AM.


          Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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          • #20
            The Verbena are are a tacit ghetto for white Dreamspeakers
            Originally posted by Saikou View Post
            Have you never heard of Norse and Celtic paganistic mythology? Celtic druids run sacred rituals all over the UK to this day, and Celtic celebrations are frequently practiced with covens and circles both open and closed. These beliefs outspan the history of Abrahamic religions and developed independently from other forms of shamanism around the world, so I’m not sure it’s accurate to call it just “white shamanism” as if the verbena were some how a form of appropriation of African/Caribbean/aboriginal Australian/Native american/Central American/Shinto Japanese/South Pacific/etc shamanism
            This, so much. Also, nothing about the general Verbena practices as described is inherently tied to the Spirit sphere like the Dreamspeakers are.
            Not their prayers and sacrifices to Old Gods, nor their raw and crude instruments, nor the Liveweaver's animalistic and eremitic way of life, nor the new-agers. Spirit can work its way into most of it, like with every Tradition, but it is no essential core and none of my last Verbena characters and concepts had a single dot invested in it. Imagine that with a Dreamspeaker.

            That is not to say that there aren't Shamanic types among the Verbena. But most Shamans, no matter their origin, find their way into the Dreamspeakers if organized Shamanism is a crowd and peers they feel most comfortable with.
            Last edited by Ambrosia; 04-24-2018, 06:57 AM.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Saikou View Post

              Have you never heard of Norse and Celtic paganistic mythology? Celtic druids run sacred rituals all over the UK to this day, and Celtic celebrations are frequently practiced with covens and circles both open and closed. These beliefs outspan the history of Abrahamic religions and developed independently from other forms of shamanism around the world, so I’m not sure it’s accurate to call it just “white shamanism” as if the verbena were some how a form of appropriation of African/Caribbean/aboriginal Australian/Native american/Central American/Shinto Japanese/South Pacific/etc shamanism

              Also, I recommend reading the Eurhanatos book to understand how they aren’t simply a death cult, but actually have deep roots in the philosophies of reincarnation such as taught from within the Hindu religion. There’s a reason their largest sect are called the chakravanti after all.
              The thing is, "shamanism" is an extremely diverse category, and I feel like just about any region's shamanistic traditions have about as much to single them out as much to single them out. Are you saying African and Native American shamanic traditions didn't develop indepently? It's still as valid a distinction as Celestial Chorus vs. Ahl-I-Batin. These are traditions that seem distinguished more by region and culture than by paradigm and methodology.

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              • #22
                Asserting an older status for Norse and Celtic paganism than Abrahamic religions is rather curious, since both the Celts and the Norse peoples were rather late cultural additions to Europe, arising in the first case demonstrably much later than the early recognizable forms of Judaism and the latter being either younger or, at most, roughly coterminous with the same with the exception of the most far reaching aspects of the 'Bell Beakers were Celts' theory.

                (p.s. Verbena are just Murray, Gardner, and Jarcke gettin' down and dirty with Druid Revival and Celtic Revival ideas and having a blood-soaked magebaby.)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post

                  The thing is, "shamanism" is an extremely diverse category, and I feel like just about any region's shamanistic traditions have about as much to single them out as much to single them out. Are you saying African and Native American shamanic traditions didn't develop indepently? It's still as valid a distinction as Celestial Chorus vs. Ahl-I-Batin. These are traditions that seem distinguished more by region and culture than by paradigm and methodology.
                  That’s almost exactly the case. The council of nine was formed and primarily organised by the Hermetics. From the Hermetic perspective, they could distinguish the Chorus from the Batini pretty easily, especially since the Arab world and the European world were often clashing with one another. The Verbena were also often fighting with the Chorus, so their distinction was just as plane to see, however as all the diverse beliefs of the dreamspeakers were so numerous and greatly dependent on the region, and as they had not much involvement with the others outside of being victims of colonialism who communed with spirits, the Hermetics did indeed lumped them together as similar enough for their purposes. The thing is that these groups individually had very little need for this imposed unity. Native American shamans and African shamans had very little need of one another as their crafts were only really intended to be locally applied. However as the technocracy grew in power, the gauntlet became stronger, and they recognised that the hermetic devised Council of nine would offer up at least a form of voice in order to protect the spirit world from ever growing stasis. And so they formed a unity not of paradigm, but of identity as spirit world ambassadors and protectors. The title of dreamspeaker is very loosely used within the tradition itself, and is only utilised as a banner by which to make communicating with other traditions easier.

                  The dreamspeaker mages themselves have varying degrees of acceptance when it comes to their imposed categorisation, some are not really bothered, others consider it a huge insult to their cultural identity, but short of leaving the council of nine and going the way of the disparates, they don’t really have many options of protest. The diversity of their group unfortunately means that there is very little consensus among its members, meaning nothing short of a global spiritual crisis gets them in large enough numbers to really form a unified front.
                  Last edited by Saikou; 04-24-2018, 10:00 AM.


                  Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                    Also, I recommend reading the Eurhanatos book to understand how they aren’t simply a death cult, but actually have deep roots in the philosophies of reincarnation such as taught from within the Hindu religion. There’s a reason their largest sect are called the chakravanti after all.
                    I guess I just feel like the game needs a broadly dharmic tradition more than it needs the Akashics or the Euthanatos. The Euthanatos just seem like an exercise in exoticizing weird or extreme funerary traditions and afterlife beliefs from a variety of cultures. One possible explanation is that the Euthanatos and Verbena are just where the Council shunts anyone whose foci are too unseemly for other Traditions.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post

                      I guess I just feel like the game needs a broadly dharmic tradition more than it needs the Akashics or the Euthanatos. The Euthanatos just seem like an exercise in exoticizing weird or extreme funerary traditions and afterlife beliefs from a variety of cultures. One possible explanation is that the Euthanatos and Verbena are just where the Council shunts anyone whose foci are too unseemly for other Traditions.
                      Within these traditions there is a lot more that binds them.
                      Some sects of the verbena are very much obsessed with genealogy, and take great care in understanding the family trees if their contemporaries to see how closely connected they are to original Wyk. These verbena hold that magic is in the blood, and it is through this bloodline that magic flows closely to the ancient mythical figures that brought magic into the world in the first place. Thus to these Verbena, a close eye is kept on how their descendants spread and mingle with others, and thus track the potency of their bloodlines through the ages and backwards towards their ancestors. The Verbena tend to share fairly loose alliances with one another, and remain rather family based, or secular in practice. The idea is that a priests may eventually move on to become the high priest or priestess within a coven of their own in the future, and so Verbena groups tend to be small, no larger then 13 members at most, and often changing with time, growing and shrinking as their members move on.

                      Because of this, there is a lot of talk between verbena covens, and an unofficial network can be traced between members that were known through mutual acquaintances and family ties.

                      The Euthanatos operates rather differently. Their recruits tend to be mages who’s awakening was particularly traumatic, or who have experienced near death situations. Either way, their avatar is in some way stained with the awareness of mortality. The Euthanatos tend to work with a Student/Mentor relationship, with one Mentor having a number of students under their watch, and the students often encouraged to watch over one another. It is this Mentor who will teach them how to understand reincarnation, read the threads of fate, understand the importance of their work and provide the good death on those in need of it. There are many methods by which the arts might be practiced, Within the chakravanti for example, this will also include the arts of shiva, while in the more pagan sects of the euthanatos, the Aided, this would be the understanding of the geass. In either case, they are taught to understand the hands of fate, and become the tools by which fate can continue towards the greatest outcome.

                      Unlike the Hermetics with their rigid and multilayered hierarchy, the Euthanatos only have this master and student dichotomy, and they remain supervised by their Mentor only until they have shown enough independence to go it alone and become mentors themselves. And unlike the Verbena, these relationships are lifelong, becoming a guru may not happen until many many years of practice and experience with the nature of fate, but the bonds they form are ever tighter as a result. Theirs then is a culture of adopted family, who share their memento mori.
                      Last edited by Saikou; 04-24-2018, 12:18 PM.


                      Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                      • #26
                        One must understand that Traditions are constructed organizations, whose membership is determined by a number of factors. These can include Geography and Culture, but also Philosophy, Goals, Practices, Politics, and even sometimes Historical Inertia. The Euthanatoi aren't JUST Hindu mystics; those just make up the core of the Tradition. Mages who specialize in death, the underworld, and fate found their way into the Tradition, from all parts of the world. The Madzimbabwe may be African, but they approach their Arts and Responsibilities differently than African Dreamspeakers or the Ngoma. The Aided and the Pomegranite Deme might seem like they'd be at home with the Verbana, but for their focus on Fate and the Underworld. The Euthanatos Tradition is held together as much by their shared purview as any kind of cultural identity.

                        On the flipside, some cultures or geographic areas have no one magical group representing them. Let's take Ancient Egypt for instance, whose successors are largely parceled out between the Order of Hermes, Ngoma, Cult of Isis, Children of Osiris, Followers of Set, various Mummies and their cults, and maybe the Silent Striders. (Yes, I'm including mortal practitioners of otherwise non-Mage splats. The Children of Osiris and Followers of Set are cults, with mortals both Awakened and unAwakened in their ranks. And the Silent Striders have their kinfolk, any of which might delve into the magic of the homeland their tribe can never return to.). All these groups are divided by matters of philosophy, politics, and even supernatural makeup, despite sharing many of the same beliefs and practices.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by loomer View Post
                          (p.s. Verbena are just Murray, Gardner, and Jarcke gettin' down and dirty with Druid Revival and Celtic Revival ideas and having a blood-soaked magebaby.)
                          Yeah, I think the best explanation for Wicca getting an entire tradition is "because the 90s". Then again, if it had all been published a decade or two later, there would have been a Tradition for "The Secret" and a Clan for Twilight. This is why the World of Darkness is a quaint 90s period piece, and should stay that way.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post

                            Yeah, I think the best explanation for Wicca getting an entire tradition is "because the 90s". Then again, if it had all been published a decade or two later, there would have been a Tradition for "The Secret" and a Clan for Twilight. This is why the World of Darkness is a quaint 90s period piece, and should stay that way.
                            You’re not an American by any chance, are you?


                            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                            • #29
                              Cult of Ecstasy nominee: Hugh Hefner. Playboy magazine is pretty much is about men enjoying fashion, good writing and pictures of beautiful women. Hugh sold a whole lifestyle of pleasure. Though if you want him as a Syndicate guy to channel the growing sexual revolution, one might have a case there.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mr. Sluagh View Post

                                Yeah, I think the best explanation for Wicca getting an entire tradition is "because the 90s". Then again, if it had all been published a decade or two later, there would have been a Tradition for "The Secret" and a Clan for Twilight. This is why the World of Darkness is a quaint 90s period piece, and should stay that way.
                                Ascension may have started that way (which was why I stayed away from it), but it seems to be faring better recently, with varying degrees of successful reintegration with the real world (which is why I’m constantly glancing it nowadays).


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