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  • #31
    I know this was unintended, but a love the term ‘contradictionary’

    It perfectly describes HDYDT.


    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Saikou View Post
      I know this was unintended, but a love the term ‘contradictionary’

      It perfectly describes HDYDT.
      I don't really get people's problem with the Spheres in M20.

      Previous editions had a tonne of pages devoted to Rotes, which were full of contradictory ideas and rules. M20 just uses a simple table which covers most of the effects that come up (a simple entry in a table for "Physical Illusions" covers ground that you might cover in 4 rotes), and has HDYDT? for complex stuff.

      Granted, HDYDT does have a few problems, but these problems, IMO, are the exception to the rule. People talk about the Chi Healing and the Chi Shields as examples of "do the same thing, but Worse!" mechanics, which to be fair were poor writing, but they don't talk about all of the stuff that works, like the rules on binding and summoning and warding, which are comprehensive, clear and concise. And I would argue that the latter is the general experience, and the weird and pointless mechanics are more rare.

      Honestly I just wish that M20's books had all had purely digital releases. I know people love the physical books, but it would be good if they could just Errata stuff to deal with contradictions.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
        Granted, HDYDT does have a few problems, but these problems, IMO, are the exception to the rule. People talk about the Chi Healing and the Chi Shields as examples of "do the same thing, but Worse!" mechanics, which to be fair were poor writing, but they don't talk about all of the stuff that works, like the rules on binding and summoning and warding, which are comprehensive, clear and concise. And I would argue that the latter is the general experience, and the weird and pointless mechanics are more rare.
        Mind you, I don't dislike HDYDT. I got the print edition sitting right on my shelf. But it is definitely a book that pretty much everybody cherry-picks from as far as I have seen and read, according to personal preference.
        This does not make it a *bad* book, but given that Mage had the people come up with explanations and, shall we say, recipes for effects for almost 20 years, a lot of stuff contained in it will clash with what other people have come up with. Again - not a bad thing, and the disclaimer at the front makes it kind of self-aware about the issue - but that's the reason it literally is handled like a 'Book of effect house rules' a lot.
        Now, to a group new to Mage? They can snatch up a lot more from its contents without plucking it apart according to previous established things. That still leaves the sheer sphere bloat for some things you mentioned, but c'est la vie.


        >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
        >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels | | >> 'Intersting' Strength Attribute Stuff

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

          Mind you, I don't dislike HDYDT. I got the print edition sitting right on my shelf. But it is definitely a book that pretty much everybody cherry-picks from as far as I have seen and read, according to personal preference.
          This does not make it a *bad* book, but given that Mage had the people come up with explanations and, shall we say, recipes for effects for almost 20 years, a lot of stuff contained in it will clash with what other people have come up with. Again - not a bad thing, and the disclaimer at the front makes it kind of self-aware about the issue - but that's the reason it literally is handled like a 'Book of effect house rules' a lot.
          Now, to a group new to Mage? They can snatch up a lot more from its contents without plucking it apart according to previous established things. That still leaves the sheer sphere bloat for some things you mentioned, but c'est la vie.
          I don't care if something in M20 contradicts the past, on principle at least. It's a new edition, and it will change mechanics and ret-con lore. The SoE have a recipe for Primium? Not in M20, unless you would prefer to keep the Revised stance on it of course. Golden Rule applies naturally.

          So if the Sphere effects aren't exactly the same as the past, I don't really get why someone would complain about that without explaining why the change is bad on an individual basis.

          As for the cherry-picking, I feel like "this is different" are the worst cases, "this contradicts something else in M20" is better, and "this is pointless, objectively inferior to another option, or adds nothing", which are good criticism.

          For example, there are a lot of things in HDYDT which give you the same result, but demand that you spend Quintessence (as an optional rule, but still). The optional rule being presented is "are you basing your paradigm around the flow of Chi/Ether/Mana? Well, now for the low low price of one precious point of Quintessence per effect, you can get the same magickal powers as everyone else!". If someone thinks that their Forcefield is a sphere of ether they are projecting from their living essence, then they should use the normal Spheres needed (Forces etc.), and only spend Quintessence if the effect they are using demands it (or if they want to reduce difficulty). Just my 2 cents, and I'm sure it has been said before.
          Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-01-2018, 04:27 AM.

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          • #35
            I FOUND A HUGE ADVANTAGE TO AVATAR!!!

            In M20, when a Spirit rolls to do damage, it rolls its Rage. A potent Water Incarna might have a Rage of 6 or higher, and each success inflicts a point of Lethal damage.

            Mages can actually soak this! They soak it with their Avatar rating. So with an Avatar of 5 against a Rage of 6, it's almost as though they had a Rage of 1 in terms of inflicting damage (on average).

            Now "huge" might be a push... it's definitely a huge advantage if you're working with, or against, spirits. I also feel like having a powerful Avatar will have an effect on some Spirits. If a Hermetic conjures up a powerful incarna, and is obviously a rank amateur, then it might just refuse to appear, or leave when it has had a second to deride (or punish) the Mage. But if it arrives and finds that the cheeky apprentice has a fierce, powerful Avatar, it might decide to do something else. Test them. Mentor them. Hurt them. To some spirits, holding a powerful Avatar might be a sign that a mortal is particularly blessed (or cursed) in a spiritual sense. Much as umbrood love Werewolves, some will respect Mages who have a potent spiritual aspect to them.

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            • #36
              I’m not sure that’s automatic soak, I read it as giving you soak dice. And I remember in M20 that you could use arête as additional soak if you had spirit 1


              Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                I’m not sure that’s automatic soak, I read it as giving you soak dice. And I remember in M20 that you could use arête as additional soak if you had spirit 1
                Yes, it forms a soak pool. My example was referring to the outcomes of rolls.

                So if their damage pool is 6, and your soak pool is 5, then on average (there's a lot of room for variation here) you are subtracting 5 dice from the attack.

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                • #38
                  Avatar with a rating of 5 .. aren't they demanding ?
                  This is exactly how i could picture the relationship between a mage and her mysteries-hungry primordial avatar with a rating of 5 => http://mangakakalot.com/chapter/maji...euro/chapter_1

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RandyRando View Post
                    Avatar with a rating of 5 .. aren't they demanding ?
                    This is exactly how i could picture the relationship between a mage and her mysteries-hungry primordial avatar with a rating of 5 => http://mangakakalot.com/chapter/maji...euro/chapter_1
                    (Ah, I see you are also a man of great taste. It's been so long since I read this series.)

                    I can totally see Neuro being a very demanding Avatar to a poor young Mage like Yako. Driving her to solve Enigmas.


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                    • #40
                      Once Avatars are more than Quintessential batteries and become characters the real potential of an Avatar rating of 4-5 manifests. Such Avatar it's a powerful being on it's own right and may reward you if you follow it's agenda (just as he can fuck you if you don't).

                      For instance, one could argue that if you haven't Avatar related Backgrounds with such a potent Avatar, it may very well be because the Avatar ain't sharing them with you. With the ST blessing, this opens the potential to buy things like Past Lives or Dreams after character gen (within a suitable story involving your Avatar tormen...erm...teaching your character, of course ).

                      Such an avatar SHOULD be a potent asset, just as it drives you kicking & screaming towards enligthenment (and madness, but who needs sanity when you have magic(k)?). Who knows what such a potent Avatar can do or teach?. Spheres, lost Rotes, spiritual Merits (and Defects) - all are fair game 'cause the Avatar it's magic(k) and knows better.

                      Buuut that enters in the lofty realm of ST discretion. Then again, so does interpreting a "demanding" Avatar.

                      ​And there's always the Circumspect Avatar Merit for those that just don't want to deal with it.

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                      • #41
                        Circumspect Avatar puts up a reference how much of a hassle an Avatar should be. If it were the other way round, having an Avatar interfering with your stuff would be a 3 point flaw...


                        So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
                          Circumspect Avatar puts up a reference how much of a hassle an Avatar should be. If it were the other way round, having an Avatar interfering with your stuff would be a 3 point flaw...
                          Technocrats seem to have this by default though. Making it a merit is so weird. Their "Genius" doesn't tend to bother them much.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                            Technocrats seem to have this by default though. Making it a merit is so weird. Their "Genius" doesn't tend to bother them much.
                            Their genius bothers them a great deal, they are just a lot better at hiding it.

                            It might be a phone call, a man in a black suit, secret messages delivered via carrier pigeon, flashes of insight, a series of beeps, a guy at the bar, or just a killer instinct, but it’s always there lurking in the corner.

                            Some might even have more mystical “genius”, perhaps a guardian angel, the ghost of their long dead husband, Father Time, Luna, or even, as contrary as it may seem, a fairy.

                            These technocrats would probably have a hell of a task trying to hide this avatar, and may even find ways of rationalising it or just think they must be schizophrenic and take progenitor medication to block it out, or at least keep it sanitised.

                            Or maybe not, maybe there’s a syndicate member at the top of their game who regularly converses with a skull they keep in their cabinet.
                            Last edited by Saikou; 05-05-2018, 12:47 PM.


                            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                            • #44
                              For many Technocrats, their "Genius" is a topic politely avoided, when they consider it at all. No one wants to be labeled Unmutual, and talking about supernatural beings that talk to them on occasion is the quickest way to get the third degree, and maybe a trip to Room 101. So every Technocrat with an overactive Eidolon will keep it to themselves, as much as possible.

                              Many of them also get VERY good at rationalizing. If an operative experiences vivid dreams, where an abstract or seemingly mythic figure gives them information or riddles, they're more likely to chalk the experience up to stress. Or else tell themselves that it's just their subconscious constructing symbolic frameworks, in order to process and relay information the operative picked up on but hasn't comprehended on a conscious level yet.

                              Keep in mind, also, that Avatars tend to interact with their mages in a manner that matches the character's Paradigm, attitudes, and personal needs. A Technocrat's Eidolon might react to their charge's refusal to acknowledge it as a part of himself, and play along. If the Technocrat thinks the Avatar is a foreign entity or a malignant suppressed aspect of his psyche - or even an internalized construct embodying his hatred for filthy superstitionists - the Avatar will acquiesce to this assumption. In this case, the Avatar's relationship with the Technocrat is adversarial, challenging him like some sort of great enemy. All while having the challenges be shaped by what the mage needs to further their path towards Ascension. Even if that means the Avatar needs to use reverse psychology. If the Technocrat sees his internal enemy seemingly wants him to zig, he'll zag just to spite it, not knowing until later that zagging is exactly what the Avatar wanted him to do.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                                For many Technocrats, their "Genius" is a topic politely avoided, when they consider it at all. No one wants to be labeled Unmutual, and talking about supernatural beings that talk to them on occasion is the quickest way to get the third degree, and maybe a trip to Room 101. So every Technocrat with an overactive Eidolon will keep it to themselves, as much as possible.

                                Many of them also get VERY good at rationalizing. If an operative experiences vivid dreams, where an abstract or seemingly mythic figure gives them information or riddles, they're more likely to chalk the experience up to stress. Or else tell themselves that it's just their subconscious constructing symbolic frameworks, in order to process and relay information the operative picked up on but hasn't comprehended on a conscious level yet.

                                Keep in mind, also, that Avatars tend to interact with their mages in a manner that matches the character's Paradigm, attitudes, and personal needs. A Technocrat's Eidolon might react to their charge's refusal to acknowledge it as a part of himself, and play along. If the Technocrat thinks the Avatar is a foreign entity or a malignant suppressed aspect of his psyche - or even an internalized construct embodying his hatred for filthy superstitionists - the Avatar will acquiesce to this assumption. In this case, the Avatar's relationship with the Technocrat is adversarial, challenging him like some sort of great enemy. All while having the challenges be shaped by what the mage needs to further their path towards Ascension. Even if that means the Avatar needs to use reverse psychology. If the Technocrat sees his internal enemy seemingly wants him to zig, he'll zag just to spite it, not knowing until later that zagging is exactly what the Avatar wanted him to do.
                                Hmm... in terms of the Mage / Avatar relationship, I wonder if an expertise in Spirit and Prime, perhaps with Mind, and a Paradigm which completely accepts Avatars as conscious and sentient beings with "minds" of their own, could allow a Mage to drive a wedge between a Mage and their Avatar, exploiting the fact that a Technocrat sees it as a malignant schizophrenic aspect of their mind, or some reality deviance that they have to keep quiet. Essentially they would be acting, mystically speaking, in concordance with what the Technocrat fears, and thinks they know.

                                Acting as a psychiatric figure, breaking down metaphysical bonds (maybe some Entropy?) by hyping up the adversarial nature of this aspect of their psyche, by giving them medications which are meant to suppress it (a good coincidental focus), by using CBT which works to marginalize that aspect of their spiritual essence.

                                As a dedicated villain, perhaps they could be a Negation Man who has decided (in their powerful denial) that they have discovered a rare and dangerous psychological affliction which seems to manifest with dangerous delusions of grandeur, paranormal mania and an intense belief in the impossible. As a former sufferer of this affliction they lure in those who have developed it and attempt to convert them to their way of thinking. The eventual aim of such would would be to generate a Denial backlash which leaves them as a Marauder. This would make the marauder in question unusual however, since despite their denial they would still be actively shaping reality (simply in a way which feeds denial and works against Avatars and Magick). Just some thoughts.
                                Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-06-2018, 12:20 PM.

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