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Countermagick and "Reality Deviance" in general - Spirits, Fera, Vampires

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  • Countermagick and "Reality Deviance" in general - Spirits, Fera, Vampires

    So there are lots of options for Countermagick. There's using a Sphere to resist a certain effect (Mind to resist Mind, or Dominate, or a Gift which makes you fall into a deep powerful lust), or using Prime to unweave something, or using Prime (and your own Quintessence) to strengthen reality and make Sphere effects more difficult. Then you have Primium.

    Do these apply to a wide variety of situations?

    So, a Syndicate agent is setting up a refinery in a Node/Cairn that has been violently cleared of Werewolves. The spirit which manifests, wanting to set him on fire... which types of countermagick work? The primium weave in his suit? Forces would work to deflect the fire, Spirit (or DS) would obviously work to stop the power or attack the Spirit, but the other options... Strengthening reality with his Quintessence, to stop such alien intervention? Unweaving its powers with Prime?

    And the same goes for Nightfolk. Primium stops a Mage's fireball. Lure of Flames from a Vampire? A sorcerer's fiery blast? A damaging supernaturally enhanced feather, thrown by a Wereraven? And are Gifts/Disciplines/Arcanoi generally effected by these different varieties of "reality deviance countermeasures"?

  • #2
    No, counter magic primarily only affects awakened magic.
    Anything a sorcerer does is within the bounds of conventional reality, so strengthening reality does nothing to it. The same goes for other night folks abilities.


    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Saikou View Post
      No, counter magic primarily only affects awakened magic.
      Anything a sorcerer does is within the bounds of conventional reality, so strengthening reality does nothing to it. The same goes for other night folks abilities.
      Okay, but rather than on a level of Reality, a level of Energy.

      So when a Sorcerer uses a Path, they are playing within the confines of reality, but what they are doing still relies on a kind of energy. Can Prime interrupt the flow of essential energies that fuel a Path, or a Discipline, or an Arcanoi, or Cantrip?

      As for "strengthening reality" to deal with Spirits, I guess the only option would be to strengthen the Gauntlet, which definitely falls within Spirit, not Prime... and that only counts as strengthening reality in an opinionated sense. To a technocrat, keeping "aliens" out of our world is certainly strengthening reality, but to a Shamanic type I assume it would be working against the essential nature of the world.
      Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-03-2018, 07:27 AM.

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      • #4
        You can indeed use prime to suck out a sorcerers mana. With Life and Matter you could arguably do the same with a vampires blood pool, and with life and spirit, a kinfolk’s gnosis. Spirit and Prime should be enough for a spirit or a Wraith, but Entropy would probably be needed to drain a wraith’s angst, not that you’d want the resonance that comes with it. For the fae’s glamour, you’d probably need Mind and Prime to target it.


        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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        • #5
          In M20 Mage Countermagick do apply to supernaturals. There's a sidebar and all. But it seems that only "basic" Countermagic works, as you roll Arete against their sucesses and you need the Spheres of the effect like in basic countermagick (hence no strengthening of reality, but Primium should work because it strengthens basic Countermagic). Of course, these rules allow supers to use Countermagic against mages too.

          In revised the default option was to use "Effect vs Effect" (i.e: you used Forces 2 to deviate Lure of the Flame), but you could allow Countermagic if you wanted to, and the ST handbook has a plethora of options (including the option to increase difficulty in certain cases. For instance, using Spirit 4 was deemed to be able to muddle the waters for Garou Gifts).

          Personally I preffer to go with "Effect vs Effect". Countermagick doesn't work, and supers don't have it either.

          If you can sell me why your magick can increase the difficulty vampires have to access the power of their blood, I would allow a penalty, but you would need Lore or some way to know how that shit works. Creating a supernatural substance that works as Bane of Vampires and thus counters their power (and causes aggravated to them, or maybe other effects) should be feasible with a ton of Lore, but it won't be Primium.

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          • #6
            How do you explain that Forces doesn't work against Lure of Flames? (Effect vs Effect)


            So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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            • #7
              If you're asking me, I don't understand. I used that as an example of Effect vs Effect, and then said that I do like Effect vs Effect. Maybe I wasn't very clear?
              Yeah, it should work.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
                How do you explain that Forces doesn't work against Lure of Flames? (Effect vs Effect)
                I think effect vs effect is common sense.

                So something, doesn't matter what really (Mage, sorcerer, spirit, demon, vampire) has conjured up a big ball of flame and thrown it at you. The way you respond to that with Forces (reducing it to a spark, redirecting it, rebounding it, turning it into light or sound) doesn't really depend on the source. You could do the same with the burst of a flamethrower, the art that created it doesn't matter.

                If that makes sense.

                The same goes for taking practical measures. You can dodge a blast. Or pull up a wall of ice to stop it. Or teleport away. Some types of "countermagic" are relatively mundane.

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                • #9
                  That’s using magic to counter something. Not quite the same thing as countermagic though.

                  But if it prevents us from being cooked, I doubt we’d really care much about the difference.


                  Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                  • #10
                    I thought of Effect vs. Effect as using magick to counter something.
                    I realized I failed to perceive the sentence mark between Effect vs. Effect and Countermagick doesn't work in the post of 11twiggins sorry my bad... too much work I guess...


                    So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                    • #11
                      Well, Effect vs. Effect it's in the Countermagic section of Revised so it's reasonable to think it's Countermagic (albeit not the classic one). I should have been more clear. What I should have said it's that the only form of Countermagic that works reliably against non-mage magic in Revised it's Effect vs. Effect and that I preffer that rule (albeit I would be ok with savvy mages devising other ways to counter, after all mages can do anything).

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                      • #12
                        I shoot his head as countermagic


                        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                          I shoot his head as countermagic
                          Joke's on you, he's going Max Euthanatos and countermagicks your bullet. WITH HIS BULLET.
                          Last edited by Ambrosia; 05-04-2018, 12:38 PM.


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