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Correspondence In Combat

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  • #16
    Arguably the spheres can actually be more trouble than they are worth in combat. Why burn someone’s face of with a fireball and risk a nasty paradox backlash when a gun will do just as well?


    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Saikou View Post
      Arguably the spheres can actually be more trouble than they are worth in combat. Why burn someone’s face of with a fireball and risk a nasty paradox backlash when a gun will do just as well?
      And even if you DO want to use the Spheres, it's often easiest to use those Spheres to make your GUN better. Most of the Spheres at ranks 1 to 3 can be used to reduce difficulties to rolls.

      Correspondence 1 to gauge distances. Entropy 1 to find weaknesses, and Entropy 2 to nudge luck if your favor. Forces 2 to concentrate kinetic energy and/or change the trajectory. Life 3 to straight up buff your Dexterity. Mind 2 to sense where an opponent intends to move or exit cover. Time 2 to keep a running understanding of the immediate future.

      At ranks this low (except for Life 3, obviously) you don't even suffer that much from Paradox, since it's all coincidental AND gives relatively low Paradox upon a botch.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Saikou View Post
        Arguably the spheres can actually be more trouble than they are worth in combat. Why burn someone’s face of with a fireball and risk a nasty paradox backlash when a gun will do just as well?
        In some situations, and under some considerations, carrying around a gun comes with a constant negative of a Mage being vulnerable to being searched by mundane humans working within the police ( and other organisations ) - including ones acting as agents directed by a person or a group working against a Mage - and having the gun discovered, and having to deal the consequences of this. This can limit a Mage's capabilities, cause setbacks, and possibly expose a Mage to danger.
        A gun permit helps in avoiding some consequences, but not all - police workers could still cause shorter or longer delays by deciding to double-check if everything is legal according to the law, and other troublesome events could happen etc.
        Last edited by Muad'Dib; 05-08-2018, 08:41 AM.

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        • #19
          OP, here are a few ideas.

          Using a knife, or punches, or bullets? Well, a coincidental Correspondence 1 effect will have you placing things "just in the right place".

          So roll Arete, difficulty 3 (Sphere level 1 + Coincidental 2), and each of your successes reduce the difficulty of your punch/stab/shot by 1.

          So say you get 2 successes, and then try to shiv someone. You're rolling your Dexterity + Melee, difficulty 4 (usually, depends on the blade), and if you're successful you could do a lot of damage.

          Alternatively, with Correspondence 2 you could just stab someone from 50 meters away. Very vulgar, however.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            In some situations, and under some considerations, carrying around a gun comes with a constant negative of a Mage being vulnerable to being searched by mundane humans working within the police ( and other organisations ) - including ones acting as agents directed by a person or a group working against a Mage - and having the gun discovered, and having to deal the consequences of this. This can limit a Mage's capabilities, cause setbacks, and possibly expose a Mage to danger.
            A gun permit helps in avoiding some consequences, but not all - policemen could still cause shorter or longer delays by deciding to double-check if everything is legal according to the law, and other troublesome events could happen etc.
            THIS. I have gotten into so many arguments in Vampire about the benefits of certain powers which...

            So if you can pop Aggravated claws at any time, that is a HUGE advantage. You have a deadly attack which no one can take away from you, which you can't lose while you're being "patted down". Compare with a revolver. Lethal damage (usually), which attracts lots of bad attention and will be taken from you.

            The same applies in Mage. The cyborg who has lots of hidden abilities and protections, can't reasonably be expected to get rid of them. A Mage who shows up to a peaceful meeting in full riot gear out of sheer paranoia looks like they're expecting a fight. The same could even be said of someone who is carrying a violent focus, like a wand or a staff or a sword. If you were really entering this in good faith, maybe you wouldn't be holding your "stick of face-melting". The half-demon Hermetic who just, well, has horns (potentially Aggravated damage)... I mean he can't take them OFF.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              In some situations, and under some considerations, carrying around a gun comes with a constant negative of a Mage being vulnerable to being searched by mundane humans working within the police ( and other organisations ) - including ones acting as agents directed by a person or a group working against a Mage - and having the gun discovered, and having to deal the consequences of this. This can limit a Mage's capabilities, cause setbacks, and possibly expose a Mage to danger.
              A gun permit helps in avoiding some consequences, but not all - policemen could still cause shorter or longer delays by deciding to double-check if everything is legal according to the law, and other troublesome events could happen etc.
              All the more why Correspondence 2 is so good. Why carry a gun everywhere, when you can teleport one from anywhere and into your pocket/bag/jacket? You'll only ever have a gun when you need it, and can send it back just as easily as it was summoned. Coincidentally, too.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                All the more why Correspondence 2 is so good. Why carry a gun everywhere, when you can teleport one from anywhere and into your pocket/bag/jacket? You'll only ever have a gun when you need it, and can send it back just as easily as it was summoned. Coincidentally, too.
                This is a great move, and it's almost always coincidental. With Correspondence 2 you can just have a special drawer in your sanctum full of all of the things you might REALLY need in a life or death situation. A small first aid kit. A mobile phone. A gun. A focus. Some high value notes in different currencies. Pepper spray. Rations. Bottled water.

                Now the axis of coincidence will EVENTUALLY start to punish you for using this trick repeatedly. But even then that's only +1 difficulty in most situations.
                Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-17-2018, 03:41 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                  THIS. I have gotten into so many arguments in Vampire about the benefits of certain powers which...

                  So if you can pop Aggravated claws at any time, that is a HUGE advantage. You have a deadly attack which no one can take away from you, which you can't lose while you're being "patted down". Compare with a revolver. Lethal damage (usually), which attracts lots of bad attention and will be taken from you.

                  The same applies in Mage. The cyborg who has lots of hidden abilities and protections, can't reasonably be expected to get rid of them. A Mage who shows up to a peaceful meeting in full riot gear out of sheer paranoia looks like they're expecting a fight. The same could even be said of someone who is carrying a violent focus, like a wand or a staff or a sword. If you were really entering this in good faith, maybe you wouldn't be holding your "stick of face-melting". The half-demon Hermetic who just, well, has horns (potentially Aggravated damage)... I mean he can't take them OFF.
                  Although among mages, all parties are ALWAYS armed with the only weapon worth a damn: True Magick. If the opponent doesn't have a gun, he might just inflict a withering curse instead.

                  Moreover, there's a certain school of thought that says everyone being armed means everyone is forced to be civil. And when no mage is willing to go without at least some weapon and/or Instrument, it becomes normal operating procedure. Everyone just knows that the person on the other side of the table is packing, and they accept that fact as much as they accept that every mage will also be erecting mind shields. That's just the nature of the game.

                  I will grant that you don't always need to come carrying an automatic submachine gun and body armor. I'm just saying that, when a person could use a Tarot card or a ring or mystical kung fu or a powerful glare, the presence of guns or knives seems almost a moot point.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                    Although among mages, all parties are ALWAYS armed with the only weapon worth a damn: True Magick. If the opponent doesn't have a gun, he might just inflict a withering curse instead.

                    Moreover, there's a certain school of thought that says everyone being armed means everyone is forced to be civil. And when no mage is willing to go without at least some weapon and/or Instrument, it becomes normal operating procedure. Everyone just knows that the person on the other side of the table is packing, and they accept that fact as much as they accept that every mage will also be erecting mind shields. That's just the nature of the game.

                    I will grant that you don't always need to come carrying an automatic submachine gun and body armor. I'm just saying that, when a person could use a Tarot card or a ring or mystical kung fu or a powerful glare, the presence of guns or knives seems almost a moot point.
                    While that is true, I think it's a perspective only experienced mages would take, and even then not always. Whether or not someone is armed in a traditional sense will impact people emotionally, and reason is not sovereign over emotion. We are socialized from a young age to fear those who carry weapons (varying from a sensible appreciation of how important it is to avoid violent confrontation, up to a semi-irrational terror) by media and upbringing, and that won't go away once you realize that a quick prayer to a pagan god can kill you as easily as a gun. I'm sure that eventually such fears would be placed in perspective, but I doubt that would be the default approach.

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                    • #25
                      it is worth keeping in mind just how dangerous even young mages can be.

                      Remember that mystics can potentially outgrow their first instrument at Arete 3 - a rating you can get in default character generation.
                      So if the ST is willing to allow that from the get-go...welll..l.
                      Depending on how that dropped instrument is determined (The rules on that are so nonexistant..), and on wether the dropped instrument was supposed to handle that kind of thing, a straight out-of-chargen young House Flambeau Hermetic can literally set somebody on fire simply by willing it. They don't even need somebody to hold their beer. It simply happens.


                      >> cWoD Dice Probability Chart | | >> cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator | | >> cWoD Alternative Armor System
                      >> cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System | | >> My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels | | >> 'Intersting' Strength Attribute Stuff

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                        it is worth keeping in mind just how dangerous even young mages can be.

                        Remember that mystics can potentially outgrow their first instrument at Arete 3 - a rating you can get in default character generation.
                        So if the ST is willing to allow that from the get-go...welll..l.
                        Depending on how that dropped instrument is determined (The rules on that are so nonexistant..), and on wether the dropped instrument was supposed to handle that kind of thing, a straight out-of-chargen young House Flambeau Hermetic can literally set somebody on fire simply by willing it. They don't even need somebody to hold their beer. It simply happens.
                        M20, Book of Secrets, clarifies that the focus you drop should be the one that is the least important to you. For example, a Hermetic who uses invocations, wands, runes and summoning circles almost religiously might be able to drop blood and fluids when they hit 3, since that's a focus they almost never use. Now if they were to make an offering of their blood to bind the ward on a Summoning Circle after transcending that requirement, they would get a -1 difficulty for using a Focus they don't need.

                        Take a Hermetic Demonogist.

                        His main focus is Wands/Staves. In support we have Writings/Inscriptions, True Names, Blood and Fluids, Cups and Vessels, Group Rites and Circles and Designs.

                        At Arete 2, he might use all of the above when summoning a Demon, just to feel safe. But he would just use his wand or staff when directing a fire or speaking with a ghost he met.

                        At Arete 3 he might realize that his blood, while a potent offering to certain entities, isn't actually needed to manifest a conjuring. It's a cruch. At 4 he might realize that the sycophants chanting alongside him are unecessary, simply a crutch for his former weakness. And so on and so forth.

                        It requires honesty and common sense. Someone who uses cybernetics/incantations/computers/writing for almost everything should drop that focus last.
                        Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-08-2018, 09:21 AM.

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                        • #27
                          There's no such thing as an instrument you don't use to create useful effects. We're talking about essential aspects of your magick here, the Focus - if an instrument isn't important, you shouldn't have it as an instrument.

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                          • #28
                            Or in other words - that I often use my want to melt faces doesn't mean I can't use my druidic monolith to do the same - it's just that carrying someone's face to my monolith it's a lot harder

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                              There's no such thing as an instrument you don't use to create useful effects. We're talking about essential aspects of your magick here, the Focus - if an instrument isn't important, you shouldn't have it as an instrument.
                              Yes, but to a VA, their interaction with computers and media will trump the other parts of their focus. The instruments which they use the least might still be an important part of their Focus, but they are something they can discard with time.

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                              • #30
                                There must be a reason behind why these instruments aid in the control of their magic. It can’t be as mechanical as “well, the book says I need a focus per sphere, so I’ll just take circles for Life and staves for Forces, oh look I’ve got to arête 6, guess I don’t need circles anymore”.

                                No, that kind of thinking is lazy in my opinion. Perhaps the hermetic believes that staves are required for Forces as the staff is the tool by which they focus the elements of the world. The influence is carried through the staff, and as they slam it down, the energy they gather up is released in the direction they moved it towards. While life requires circles as the powers of life are inherently circular. Life is cyclic as are their energies, and so to place the body in the circle and call upon similar designs such as spirals, helixes, and perhaps even curves, they are able to manipulate specific aspects of ones internal circular energies, as the shapes force the pathways down routes that invoke the change they impart on their target.

                                How do they shed this focus? Perhaps during their seeking, they realised that the way to govern the pathways of these energies can be shaped through hand gesture alone. Where they needed to draw circles about over their target and ensure the patterns lines up perfectly, they can now enforce circular movement by somatic gestures. Perhaps as they become more practiced, they no longer have need of somatic gesture, but just eyemovement alone is enough to direct these energies down the correct pathways.

                                Also, arête 4 is - bit early to star dropping instruments entirely. I’d leave until at least arête 6, maybe 5 at most. Either way, I’d say it’s best done as part of the seeking, and must be a gradual process with a sense of progression associated with it.


                                Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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