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  • #16
    Well. For one thing, not really? If fighting Nephandi was their sole goal, they could join either the Tradition or Technocracy. Who will quite cheerfully fight the Nephandi all day long. M20's nonsensical 'The Technocracy is a front for the Nephandi' metaplot aside. But each Craft is a Craft because they had issues they would not bend over reasons they would not work with outsiders. For the Taftani, it was their refusal to serve falsehood and hide their magic. Does that seem like a faction that's good to have in your 'secret' club? A group that is by definition incapable of lying because lying is for wimps?

    No. It's not. So they butchered what the Taftani were, and made them into something vaguely shaped like the Taftani. Much the same for the Wu Lung. These are all groups with an established track record of telling others for THOUSANDS OF YEARS to 'fuck off with that teaming up shit' In spite of the Nephandi, who have most certainly existed for that long at the least.

    If the Traditions are New Age Paganism, with it's willingness to accept other viewpoints as valid. Other truths as real. The Technocracy is modern reductionist science, with it's one truth until proven wrong....

    Then the Crafts are the stodgy paganists of old. Cheerfully murdering each other over whether Zeus or Thor is better at throwing lightning. Both the Technocracy and the Crafts believe their way, and only their way, is right.

    That's what made each craft interesting, special. And the DA takes that, and rips it right to pieces.

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    • #17
      Not everyone in the crafts are homogenised In their way of thinking. I can imagine some members of the various crafts getting tired of the inward looking ways of their parents and look out to forge new ties.

      The disparates are the combined banner under which those who think in such away may find some form of comaradre, united by their marginalised status.


      Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Saikou View Post
        Not everyone in the crafts are homogenised In their way of thinking. I can imagine some members of the various crafts getting tired of the inward looking ways of their parents and look out to forge new ties.

        The disparates are the combined banner under which those who think in such away may find some form of comaradre, united by their marginalised status.
        That's.... kind of what the Crafts ARE. Holdouts to old ideologies. Anyone who had such notions wouldn't go to form some new group. They would go, as was briefly mentioned in M20, to join the Traditions. Which is already a known and established thing. There's no REASON to join some NEW group. Except, the writers decided that Whamo, Everyone but the Disparate's are riddled with Nephandi.

        There is no real reason for the Disparate Alliance to exist. The reasons they came up with for them to exist wreck the existing setting. I dunno. Maybe some people like them. Personally I disregard them almost entirely.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

          That's.... kind of what the Crafts ARE. Holdouts to old ideologies. Anyone who had such notions wouldn't go to form some new group. They would go, as was briefly mentioned in M20, to join the Traditions. Which is already a known and established thing. There's no REASON to join some NEW group. Except, the writers decided that Whamo, Everyone but the Disparate's are riddled with Nephandi.

          There is no real reason for the Disparate Alliance to exist. The reasons they came up with for them to exist wreck the existing setting. I dunno. Maybe some people like them. Personally I disregard them almost entirely.
          Except that the traditions don’t take you seriously, and may be as large a threat to your way as the technocracy. As a solificati, you would have to join the ranks of the Hermetics, while a Templar would have to give up their rank and start over with the chorus, and the Wu Leng would need to swallow their pride and become allies with their age old enemies, the akashics.

          The crafts are isolationist by definition, and there may be some members that look at their craft and realise that this way only leads to death. They realise that without allies they would be attacked from all sides and slowly whittled away into nothingness.

          So who can they forge ties with if not the established traditions who are predominantly hermetic lead and governed? Why, the other crafts who are in the same position as them. Marginalised and therefore vulnerable to attacks from all sides.

          The disparates are not the traditions. There is no organised council of nine or hierarchy or authority. Nore is there a need for adhearance to hermetic terminology such as the concept of the spheres.

          Instead they are a loose alliance designed around protecting their identity.

          I imagine that the majority of the members of each craft are actually not a part of the disparates, and in fact there would be many that loath the idea for the reasons you’ve stated. Others would have a hard time getting over the ideological differences and the history of war that their sides may have been involved with.

          But everyone is individual, and not all craft members would be so close minded. They see the traditions and think “their alliance can work... so why not us?”

          Not every craft member is a member of this alliance, and there would be several that scoff for the same reasons that you do. If anything that kind of dynamic makes it very different from the traditions in terms of story. To be a member of the disparates requires secrecy lest your elders discover and disown you. As a member of the disparates you have even greater diversity to try and overcome than the traditions, without the centuries of history that set the presadents.
          You could play as an optimist, trying to recruit members of your own craft or others towards the cause, a reluctant who suffered a great betrayal at the hands of the traditions, a sceptic who joins only until their goals are met, or a saboteur who only joins in an attempt to break up this alliance, seeing it as a threat to their craft's identity.

          There is a lot of interesting potential for an idea like this.
          Last edited by Saikou; 05-10-2018, 01:33 PM.


          Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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          • #20
            I'd like to point out that, if the purpose of the Disparate Alliance is to oppose the machinations of the Nephandi, the Crafts have just as much to fear from the Traditions being corrupted as they do the Technocracy. More so, actually, since unlike the Technocratic Union, the Traditions aren't what you'd call "rigidly organized". It's FAR easier for a Nephandus to infiltrate the Traditions, or even turn existing members, than the Union. The Technocracy spends a great deal of time monitoring its members for conformity, which makes subversion harder.

            It wouldn't stop the Fallen from trying to subvert the Union. Far from it. But it's also entirely reasonable to expect the Traditions to be infiltrated as well, given its lax, decentralized nature. Not every Tradition is like the Order of Hermes, after all.

            Does that mean the Traditions are controlled by the Fallen? Maybe, maybe not. The possibility exists, however, and that's all the Crafts need to distrust them. At the very least, it helps to have their own alliance, separate from the Traditions, with which to make preparations and oppose your enemies.


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            • #21
              It's a direct Risk vs Reward thing for the Nephandi, when it comes to the infiltration and keeping your cover, really.
              The ladder would be "Orphans -> DA -> Traditions -> Technocracy" when it comes to rigidity, controlled activities and sheer size of structure in terms of overall influencing the group. The higher you go up that ladder, the harder it is to get in and to a point where you can manipulate the group as a whole, if only because of the size and reach of its 'command structure'.

              But IF, IF you make it past the Technocracy's screening, IF you can stay hidden and play the long game...IF you manage to rise the Technocracy's ranks up high enough without your cover getting blown, the levers you get access to are the most powerful and far reaching - and potentially the most devastating for the rest of the awakened, or that group.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                I'd like to point out that, if the purpose of the Disparate Alliance is to oppose the machinations of the Nephandi, the Crafts have just as much to fear from the Traditions being corrupted as they do the Technocracy. More so, actually, since unlike the Technocratic Union, the Traditions aren't what you'd call "rigidly organized". It's FAR easier for a Nephandus to infiltrate the Traditions, or even turn existing members, than the Union. The Technocracy spends a great deal of time monitoring its members for conformity, which makes subversion harder.

                It wouldn't stop the Fallen from trying to subvert the Union. Far from it. But it's also entirely reasonable to expect the Traditions to be infiltrated as well, given its lax, decentralized nature. Not every Tradition is like the Order of Hermes, after all.

                Does that mean the Traditions are controlled by the Fallen? Maybe, maybe not. The possibility exists, however, and that's all the Crafts need to distrust them. At the very least, it helps to have their own alliance, separate from the Traditions, with which to make preparations and oppose your enemies.
                With that argument then the Nephandi could have co-opted the Disparate much more easily than the Traditions. Why? Because they're not only more lax and decentralized: By joining pagans and heathens/men and barbarians/etc...you get the idea, they're explicitly rebeling against principles that their Craft hold dear - in other words, a brewing opportunity for disonance and fragmentation that Nephandi can easily use to insinuate their own methods as novelty without calling much attention (What!, you don't accept desacration of temples - you're shaming me for my cultural beliefs!, I tought we were better than that).

                You're all forgetting that "the Crafts" never existed prior to the Disparate alliance. "The Crafts" weren't a Faction, they were extremely individualistic factions, each one convinced of their place in the world. The "Crafts" don't have any reason to see each other as people in the same situation, because they aren't people in the same situation.
                As far as Templars know, Baata are just another Faction, a covenant of pagans much like the Technocracy and the Tarditions and every bit as wicked as them - they would never see them as people on the same boat, because they aren't on the same boat.
                Wu Lung wouldn't compare their situation with that of the Sisters of Hypolita - as far as they know they're a Nephandi founded perversion already, and they have no way to "check" this out because there's no way the Sisters would tolerate such scrutiny in their sacred "only women allowed" villages.
                Thus, to say that they banded together just because Nephandi it's preposterous. They' don't have any reason to trust the other Crafts any more than they would trust the Taditions or the Technocracy.

                I would be more inclined to believe that the Nephandi flag was raised by the Batini in order to be able to comunicate with (and manipulate) these prideful factions - such claims have to be investigated. I would be more inclined to believe that the so called "Alliance" it's made mostly of those comunication threads built by the few Crafts who actually believe in compromise, while more stubborn members like the Taftani or the Templars don't even know the whole extense of this net nor exactly whom they're allied with.

                Sadly, this isn't canon and the Alliance it's much more than an information network - it has fucking LAWS that the other members have to abide to (which, for some reason, are very...how to put it..."politically correct") - the way the Alliance it's depitcted, they represent as much an abdication to the individual beliefs of most Crafts as joining the Traditions would, if not more: Just look at the Taftani for petes sake!
                Last edited by Aleph; 05-10-2018, 10:44 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                  I'd like to point out that, if the purpose of the Disparate Alliance is to oppose the machinations of the Nephandi, the Crafts have just as much to fear from the Traditions being corrupted as they do the Technocracy. More so, actually, since unlike the Technocratic Union, the Traditions aren't what you'd call "rigidly organized". It's FAR easier for a Nephandus to infiltrate the Traditions, or even turn existing members, than the Union. The Technocracy spends a great deal of time monitoring its members for conformity, which makes subversion harder.

                  It wouldn't stop the Fallen from trying to subvert the Union. Far from it. But it's also entirely reasonable to expect the Traditions to be infiltrated as well, given its lax, decentralized nature. Not every Tradition is like the Order of Hermes, after all.

                  Does that mean the Traditions are controlled by the Fallen? Maybe, maybe not. The possibility exists, however, and that's all the Crafts need to distrust them. At the very least, it helps to have their own alliance, separate from the Traditions, with which to make preparations and oppose your enemies.
                  All that matters is that the DA THINK the other Sects are riddled with Nephandi. Are they right? Maybe not. But that's their driving idea right now. They need to fight Nephandi without collaborating with the Traditions or the Technocracy. Maybe the Technocracy has some Nephandi, or a lot, or their middle or lower or upper ranks are controlled by Nephandi. Same goes for the Traditions. And it doesn't really matter if the DA are right, it's just a motivation and a setpiece.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                    It's a direct Risk vs Reward thing for the Nephandi, when it comes to the infiltration and keeping your cover, really.
                    The ladder would be "Orphans -> DA -> Traditions -> Technocracy" when it comes to rigidity, controlled activities and sheer size of structure in terms of overall influencing the group. The higher you go up that ladder, the harder it is to get in and to a point where you can manipulate the group as a whole, if only because of the size and reach of its 'command structure'.

                    But IF, IF you make it past the Technocracy's screening, IF you can stay hidden and play the long game...IF you manage to rise the Technocracy's ranks up high enough without your cover getting blown, the levers you get access to are the most powerful and far reaching - and potentially the most devastating for the rest of the awakened, or that group.
                    While the Technocracy has a lot of screening and defenses, it's worth remembering that mystic mages have a stronger understanding of what the Nephandi are, throughout the ranks. A mystic paradigm can instantly accept "dark mages who have succumbed to evil", while a more agnostic paradigm won't instantly allow for Mages who are servants of cosmic evil. There's no reason a Technephandi couldn't climb the ranks. Furthermore, seduction and conversion of someone who is already inside the Technocracy is often an easier route. Technocrats are already doing some things which line up with Nephandic practices and behaviour. A Syndicate Nephandus might lay off 1000s to spread misery, and justify it by pointing out a boost in profits. A normal Syndicate Mage would lay off 1000s BECAUSE it will increase profits, with the misery being a side effect. A Progenitor will experiment on unborn children by targeting poor women of colour in the US (yes, they have done this), but they're not doing it to spread hatred and discontent. They're doing it because they have justified it with the advances which could be made. If a Progenitor were put through the cauls, however, they might start doing stuff like that and only use the benefits as a justification for those around them. The reasoning and purpose is different, but there are a lot of ideas and feelings you can work with to seduce a Technocrat. Out of the Nephandic cults mentioned in M20, we have a few which can mess with the Syndicate especially.

                    Quite often for the Technocracy, Bad Thing = Okay because Bad Thing -> Lots of Good Things. Profit. Scientific advances. Control. Destruction of Reality Deviants. For a Nephandus, the same reasoning can simply be used as a cover. There's plenty of camaflauge here.

                    So it seems reasonable that the Technocracy will have a Nephandi problem. Are they all Nephandic puppets? Probably not. But all it takes is for a few high-ranking Syndicate executives to succumb, and the Nephandi already have a lot of power. Rooting out Nephandic influence in the other Sects is important to the Disparates.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Saikou View Post

                      Except that the traditions don’t take you seriously, and may be as large a threat to your way as the technocracy. As a solificati, you would have to joint the ranks of the Hermetics, while a Templar would have to give up their rank and start over with the chorus, and the Wu Leng would need to seollowntheir pride and become allies with their age old enemies, the akashics.

                      The crafts are isolationary by definition, and there may be some members that look at their craft and realise that this way only leads to death. They realise that without allies they would be attacked from all sides and slowly wittled away into nothingness.

                      So who can they forge ties with if not the established traditions who are predominantly hermetic lead and governed? Why, the other crafts who are in the same position as them. Marginalised and therefore vulnerable to attacks from all sides.

                      The disparates are not the traditions. There is no organised council of nine or hierarchy or authority. Nore is there a need for adhearance to hermetic terminology such as the concept of the spheres.

                      Instead they are a loose alliance designed around protecting their identity.

                      I imagine that the majority of the members of each craft are actually not a part of the disparates, and in fact there would be many that loath the idea for the reasons you’ve stated. Others would have a hard time getting over the ideological differences and the history of war that their sides may have been involved with.

                      But everyone is individual, and not all craft members would be so close minded. They see the traditions and think “their alliance can work... so why not us?”

                      Not every craft member is a member of this alliance, and there would be several that scoff for the same reasons that you do. If anything that kind of dynamic makes it very different from the traditions in terms of story. To be a member of the disparates requires secrecy lest your elders discover and disown you. As a member of the disparates you have even greater diversity to try and overcome than the traditions, without the centuries of history that set the presadents.
                      You could play as an optimist, trying to recruit members of your own craft or others towards the cause, a reluctant who suffered a great betrayal at the hands of the traditions, a sceptic who joins only until their goals are met, or a sabaotour who only joins in an attempt to break up this alliance, seeing it as a threat to their crafts identity.

                      There is a lot of interesting potential for an idea like this.
                      Fully agreed. Yes, the Disparate Alliance does have rules, but not every Templar runs with the DA, and the same goes for each Craft. It's like a Teacher's Union. Some teachers are in it and barely think about it, just sticking to a few rules and enjoying a few small benefits. Some advocate for it and are deeply involved. And some teachers don't join a union at all.

                      So the DA is a perfect balance for the Crafts. There is a framework for cooperation, but cooperation happens on everyone's terms. There is a framework for sharing of information and crucial data, and that is employed for mutual protection. They are kindred spirits. Marginalized practitioners of magick who don't want to play ball with a big rigid Sect.

                      And let's not forget that previously the Crafts had simply been wiped out by the Technocracy, which M20 points out would make the Technocracy omniscient and also the perpetrators of the most carefully planned and widespread genocides in human history. Having the DA as a loose alliance of crafts who share just enough to cooperate is a great improvement over having all of these magickal traditions wiped out in the metaplot.
                      Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-10-2018, 11:26 AM.

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