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Prime 3 says you can craft a Periapt, but Crafting Wonders says you need Matter 5

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  • Prime 3 says you can craft a Periapt, but Crafting Wonders says you need Matter 5

    What gives? This feels like a big oversight. Simply charging a pattern with Quintessence which you can later take back is described as being one of the advantages of having Prime 3. Prime 3 explicitly talks about making Periapts/Matrices without mentioning any other requirements. Why does this also require Matter, and at such a high ranking? You need to MASTER the Matter Sphere in order to make a Quintessence battery? Surely if making a Periapt requires Matter 5, ALL Wonders and Charms should require Matter 5?

    Furthermore, M20 talks about Soulgems as though they are different from Periapts. You need Prime 4 to make a Soulgem, and Prime 3 to make a Periapt. What is a Soulgem? An object you store your personal Quintessence and Resonance in. What is a Periapt? An object you store Quintessence in. I feel like the distinction is too subtle to be worthwhile. And M20 only mentions Soulgems once. It doesn't give rules for making them or using them. So does that require Matter too?

    Also M20 repeatedly says that you need Prime 2 to energize a Periapt or draw energy from it, and then sometimes says you need Prime 3 to energize a Periapt... I'm assuming that it means you need Prime 3 to originally create a Periapt, and Prime 2 to refuel it, but the language is ambiguous and it's hard to be entirely certain what the writer intended.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-14-2018, 11:23 AM.

  • #2
    It's true. M20 is a total mess when it comes to this. I've just looked at the core rulebook, HDYDT and the Book of Secrets.
    First of all: that Matter 5 thing is bullshit. It's totally over the top and how could a wonder hold Quintessence whithout being casted with Matter 5 if a vessel created specifically to contain Quintessence NEEDS Matter 5 to be created? What the heck? Scrap that.
    Difference between a Soulgem and a Periapt? Well... The Periapt just contains Quintessence. It has it's own Resonance and this can be very helpful for casting some spells. But the Soulgem/Soulflower contains Quintessence that is considered "personal Quintessence" of the Mage. It carries the Mages most dominant Resonances (instead of having a Resonance itself) and can be considered a unique Instrument when casting spells. It is concecrated by nature and thus doesn't need to be handled specially when sidestepping, teleporting or shapechanging. These are minor advantages, but sometimes they can be pretty useful.
    As of the need for using a Periapt: It's Prime 2 to access the Quintessence (or Prime2/Corr2 to do so from a distance). Prime 3 is only needed to create the Periapt in the first place.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by TheVarulfen View Post
      It's true. M20 is a total mess when it comes to this. I've just looked at the core rulebook, HDYDT and the Book of Secrets.
      First of all: that Matter 5 thing is bullshit. It's totally over the top and how could a wonder hold Quintessence whithout being casted with Matter 5 if a vessel created specifically to contain Quintessence NEEDS Matter 5 to be created? What the heck? Scrap that.
      Difference between a Soulgem and a Periapt? Well... The Periapt just contains Quintessence. It has it's own Resonance and this can be very helpful for casting some spells. But the Soulgem/Soulflower contains Quintessence that is considered "personal Quintessence" of the Mage. It carries the Mages most dominant Resonances (instead of having a Resonance itself) and can be considered a unique Instrument when casting spells. It is concecrated by nature and thus doesn't need to be handled specially when sidestepping, teleporting or shapechanging. These are minor advantages, but sometimes they can be pretty useful.
      As of the need for using a Periapt: It's Prime 2 to access the Quintessence (or Prime2/Corr2 to do so from a distance). Prime 3 is only needed to create the Periapt in the first place.
      See it's stuff like this which makes me wish physical print weren't a thing.

      I know, I know, people love shiny beautiful books, but hear me out.

      If the books were purely PDF, then they could simply update them for years after release, to fix mistakes and contradictions. It would also liberate them from certain page restrictions.

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      • #4
        I'm mostly wondering about "personal Quintessence" at this point. They make it sound like it's a major thing and then give nearly no details about it, exept that there is the Quintessence you absorb with your Avatar and the Quintessence you absorb by employing the Prime sphere.

        It's not tracked in any other way than normal Quintessence. It doesn't have any special mechanics.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TheVarulfen View Post
          I'm mostly wondering about "personal Quintessence" at this point. They make it sound like it's a major thing and then give nearly no details about it, exept that there is the Quintessence you absorb with your Avatar and the Quintessence you absorb by employing the Prime sphere.

          It's not tracked in any other way than normal Quintessence. It doesn't have any special mechanics.
          I think that Personal Quintessence can't be accessed by other Mages, short of actually destroying and unraveling the Pattern. So your 1-5 points from Avatar, and the points stored in your Soulgem or Soulflower, no other Mage can use it without Vulgar and destructive magick which will render the vessel damaged.

          I checked Book of Secrets; they double down on needing Matter 5, SEVERAL times. It just seems so ridiculous. If you need Matter 5 to create a Periapt, then Prime 3's description should not include "craft periapt". If you need Matter 5 to make an object store Quintessence, then all Wonders should require Matter 5 or Life 5. By the same logic a Fetish could need Matter 5, since objects aren't built to hold demons or nexus crawlers or tree spirits, and therefore you need to use Matter 5 to alter the object to suit this purpose.

          And what I find ESPECIALLY ridiculous about all of this is that it makes it sound like having 5 in a Sphere is no big deal. I mean could you imagine investing 5 points in Matter specifically to craft certain wonders? If you're investing 5 points in Matter you are doing it to create crazy super-chemicals, perfect materials for cybernetics, the ultimate weapons and machinery, you get the idea.

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          • #6
            Periapts requiring mastery of Matter has been a thing since the start. Even Forged by Dragons Fire had it as a requirement. They didn’t even need Prime 3, just matter 5.

            I think they would rather mages bought periapts from other mages for favours, Tass, alliegence, or money, rather than players try to make their own.

            Perhaps they found periapts crafting to make a mages arsenal somewhat overpowered?


            Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Saikou View Post
              Periapts requiring mastery of Matter has been a thing since the start. Even Forged by Dragons Fire had it as a requirement. They didn’t even need Prime 3, just matter 5.

              I think they would rather mages bought periapts from other mages for favours, Tass, alliegence, or money, rather than players try to make their own.

              Perhaps they found periapts crafting to make a mages arsenal somewhat overpowered?
              I mean of all things... any Mage with Prime 3 can (allowing for Paradigm issues) simply draw Quintessence from physical manifestations of energy, and from big events. What is it about Periapts which are such a big deal? They're letting you store Quintessence and Paradox. It's hardly game-breaking. In order to make it you need to invest a lot of Quintessence, and in order to get any use out of it you need to acquire more Quintessence regularly.

              So with Matter 5 you could make yourself a Periapt... while at Prime 3-5 acquiring Quintessence becomes a simple matter of a few dice rolls.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                I mean of all things... any Mage with Prime 3 can (allowing for Paradigm issues) simply draw Quintessence from physical manifestations of energy, and from big events. What is it about Periapts which are such a big deal? They're letting you store Quintessence and Paradox. It's hardly game-breaking. In order to make it you need to invest a lot of Quintessence, and in order to get any use out of it you need to acquire more Quintessence regularly.

                So with Matter 5 you could make yourself a Periapt... while at Prime 3-5 acquiring Quintessence becomes a simple matter of a few dice rolls.
                Wonders can be made for the whole party. Find a strong enough node and you could potentially make periapts for each and ever Mage in your group, and then everyone has a quintessence pouch.


                Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Saikou View Post

                  Wonders can be made for the whole party. Find a strong enough node and you could potentially make periapts for each and ever Mage in your group, and then everyone has a quintessence pouch.
                  I feel like a lot of rules in TTRPGs do have this aspect of...

                  "X can make Y, a powerful object that can be used by anyone."

                  "But what if X makes Y for lots of people!?"

                  "Well I mean that would use up a lot of time and resources. Furthermore, they need an incentive to do so, and can possibly charge a great price for their work. And such items could be used against them, or against causes they care about, so they might be quite selective in who they make them for-"

                  "I HAVE TO STOP THEM! I'm... I'm adding an EXP cost. And you need extra rare powers to do it."

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                  • #10
                    I agree. I house rule it so that Prime 3 is enough to make a periapt, but Matter 5 is also capable of the feat. Also, I abhor exp cost for wonder crafting.


                    Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                    • #11
                      TheVarulfen made a great point that I actually missed; if you need Matter 5 to create an object that can store Quintessence, then all Wonders (like the plasma canons of Iteration X) which hold their own Primal Energy / Quintessence should require Matter 5.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        TheVarulfen made a great point that I actually missed; if you need Matter 5 to create an object that can store Quintessence, then all Wonders (like the plasma canons of Iteration X) which hold their own Primal Energy / Quintessence should require Matter 5.
                        I’m not sure that follows.

                        The idea of a periapt is it is an object which is imbued with Tass to the point of being a hybrid Tass/Matter object. You require matter mastery to therefore create this otherwise impossible object.

                        Other wonders are simply enchanted objects, no new compound is being made, instead an effect is being tied to the object itself so that it may cast the effect independently of the mage.

                        That being said, I still think it should be possible to make a periapt with Prime 3 alone as you’re enchanting an object with the Prime 3 ability to move about quintessence and the Prime 1 ability to store quintessence.


                        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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                        • #13
                          Matter 5 should be able to create a substance that "naturally" absorbs Quintessence, but Prime 3-4 should be enough to store extra Quintessence in a pattern.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saikou View Post

                            I’m not sure that follows.

                            The idea of a periapt is it is an object which is imbued with Tass to the point of being a hybrid Tass/Matter object. You require matter mastery to therefore create this otherwise impossible object.

                            Other wonders are simply enchanted objects, no new compound is being made, instead an effect is being tied to the object itself so that it may cast the effect independently of the mage.

                            That being said, I still think it should be possible to make a periapt with Prime 3 alone as you’re enchanting an object with the Prime 3 ability to move about quintessence and the Prime 1 ability to store quintessence.
                            But a plasma canon can be made to store large amounts of Quintessence. It's definitely not the same as a Periapt, however clearly you don't need Matter 5 to store Quintessence in an object if you can make a plasma canon with "just" Prime and Forces.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                              But a plasma canon can be made to store large amounts of Quintessence. It's definitely not the same as a Periapt, however clearly you don't need Matter 5 to store Quintessence in an object if you can make a plasma canon with "just" Prime and Forces.
                              If it stores quintessence, it has a periapt as part of its design. And if someone’s already made you the periapt, then you can just “staple it on” as it were.


                              Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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