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Prime 3 says you can craft a Periapt, but Crafting Wonders says you need Matter 5

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  • Prime 3 says you can craft a Periapt, but Crafting Wonders says you need Matter 5

    What gives? This feels like a big oversight. Simply charging a pattern with Quintessence which you can later take back is described as being one of the advantages of having Prime 3. Prime 3 explicitly talks about making Periapts/Matrices without mentioning any other requirements. Why does this also require Matter, and at such a high ranking? You need to MASTER the Matter Sphere in order to make a Quintessence battery? Surely if making a Periapt requires Matter 5, ALL Wonders and Charms should require Matter 5?

    Furthermore, M20 talks about Soulgems as though they are different from Periapts. You need Prime 4 to make a Soulgem, and Prime 3 to make a Periapt. What is a Soulgem? An object you store your personal Quintessence and Resonance in. What is a Periapt? An object you store Quintessence in. I feel like the distinction is too subtle to be worthwhile. And M20 only mentions Soulgems once. It doesn't give rules for making them or using them. So does that require Matter too?

    Also M20 repeatedly says that you need Prime 2 to energize a Periapt or draw energy from it, and then sometimes says you need Prime 3 to energize a Periapt... I'm assuming that it means you need Prime 3 to originally create a Periapt, and Prime 2 to refuel it, but the language is ambiguous and it's hard to be entirely certain what the writer intended.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 05-14-2018, 11:23 AM.

  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by MesmerOfLife View Post
    And what about consecration and turning the Patterns into Quintessence? In Wonter creation part they say Prime 4 needed to gain Quintessence from materials when in the Spheres they say am age can use Prime 2 or 3. And I didn't even say about living Patterns.
    Also consecration of Matter is possible with just Prime 1 while consecration of living things demands Prime 2 AND Life 2-3

    Prime Sphere is so confusing.
    Prime sphere was heavily modified in the transition between Revised and M20.

    It used to be that Prime 2 made charms out of matter pattern objects from Tass, Prime 3 made artefacts from Tass, and Prime 4 made talismans. To make a charm/artefact/relic out of a life pattern requires one rank higher, as does creating from raw quintessence and not Tass.

    So making a talisman out of a wand with quintessence instead of Tass is Prime 5, and making an artefact out of a flower with Tass is Prime 4.

    Charm= temporary wonder
    Artefact = standard wonder
    Talisman= wonder with its own arête

    You do not require life or matter to do any of this.

    Locking an effect into a matter of life pattern does NOT require prime, but does require either life or matter, arguably either Life 3 or 4, or Matter 2 or 3, possibly 4 depending of the complexity. It allows the spell to remain attached to whatever you put it to without the mage needing to be near it, but also requires concentration to keep it up, i.e. will contribute to total number of continuous effects until dispelled.

    To make the locked on object what I call a pseudo-wonder, i.e. an enchanted object that does not require concentration to keep it up, it could be argued that Prime can be used for this. I’d argue Prime 2 would be sufficient for this.

    The object in question is NOT a real wonder, and as such is incapable of producing a magical effect. But rather just has a spell permanently embedded into ta pattern.

    An enchanted stick can be made to permanently be on fire with Forces, matter, and possibly prime, but a real wonder might be a stick that can cast balls of fire at a target with Forces and Prime alone.

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  • MesmerOfLife
    replied
    And what about consecration and turning the Patterns into Quintessence? In Wonter creation part they say Prime 4 needed to gain Quintessence from materials when in the Spheres they say am age can use Prime 2 or 3. And I didn't even say about living Patterns.
    Also consecration of Matter is possible with just Prime 1 while consecration of living things demands Prime 2 AND Life 2-3

    Prime Sphere is so confusing.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheVarulfen
    replied
    But it's M20 rules we were talking about in the first place. And it's been M20 rules that say Matter 5 would be necessary for Periapts and stuff.
    But yes, it's very inconsistent. M20 did a good job streamlining the entire system, so these are the (relatively) small oversights. And it's something that can be fixed with a few simple house-rules.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by TheVarulfen View Post
    M20 Core Rulebook states on page 653 that: "Generally, Wonders have a capacity of five Quintessence points for each point of Arete." As follows: you can craft wonders with Prime 4 and a few spheres that are able to contain Quintessence, but you can't build a Periapt without Matter 5. Wait, what?
    That’s a new thing for M20, and just shows that they did not double check their work for consistency.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheVarulfen
    replied
    M20 Core Rulebook states on page 653 that: "Generally, Wonders have a capacity of five Quintessence points for each point of Arete." As follows: you can craft wonders with Prime 4 and a few spheres that are able to contain Quintessence, but you can't build a Periapt without Matter 5. Wait, what?

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    I imagine that Iteration X has a few warehouses filled with matrices for various sized devices, and a number of master engineers tasked with overseeing their production.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    If it stores quintessence, it has a periapt as part of its design. And if someone’s already made you the periapt, then you can just “staple it on” as it were.
    Ah, so those making Wonders for the Techoncracy will receive Matrices to plug into their creations as standard I assume? Obviously if they're a good employee and they're worthy of the investment. You can't expect everyone who is tinkering with new models of plasma rifles to be a master of "material sciences".

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

    But a plasma canon can be made to store large amounts of Quintessence. It's definitely not the same as a Periapt, however clearly you don't need Matter 5 to store Quintessence in an object if you can make a plasma canon with "just" Prime and Forces.
    If it stores quintessence, it has a periapt as part of its design. And if someone’s already made you the periapt, then you can just “staple it on” as it were.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    I’m not sure that follows.

    The idea of a periapt is it is an object which is imbued with Tass to the point of being a hybrid Tass/Matter object. You require matter mastery to therefore create this otherwise impossible object.

    Other wonders are simply enchanted objects, no new compound is being made, instead an effect is being tied to the object itself so that it may cast the effect independently of the mage.

    That being said, I still think it should be possible to make a periapt with Prime 3 alone as you’re enchanting an object with the Prime 3 ability to move about quintessence and the Prime 1 ability to store quintessence.
    But a plasma canon can be made to store large amounts of Quintessence. It's definitely not the same as a Periapt, however clearly you don't need Matter 5 to store Quintessence in an object if you can make a plasma canon with "just" Prime and Forces.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Matter 5 should be able to create a substance that "naturally" absorbs Quintessence, but Prime 3-4 should be enough to store extra Quintessence in a pattern.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    TheVarulfen made a great point that I actually missed; if you need Matter 5 to create an object that can store Quintessence, then all Wonders (like the plasma canons of Iteration X) which hold their own Primal Energy / Quintessence should require Matter 5.
    I’m not sure that follows.

    The idea of a periapt is it is an object which is imbued with Tass to the point of being a hybrid Tass/Matter object. You require matter mastery to therefore create this otherwise impossible object.

    Other wonders are simply enchanted objects, no new compound is being made, instead an effect is being tied to the object itself so that it may cast the effect independently of the mage.

    That being said, I still think it should be possible to make a periapt with Prime 3 alone as you’re enchanting an object with the Prime 3 ability to move about quintessence and the Prime 1 ability to store quintessence.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    TheVarulfen made a great point that I actually missed; if you need Matter 5 to create an object that can store Quintessence, then all Wonders (like the plasma canons of Iteration X) which hold their own Primal Energy / Quintessence should require Matter 5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saikou
    replied
    I agree. I house rule it so that Prime 3 is enough to make a periapt, but Matter 5 is also capable of the feat. Also, I abhor exp cost for wonder crafting.

    Leave a comment:


  • 11twiggins
    replied
    Originally posted by Saikou View Post

    Wonders can be made for the whole party. Find a strong enough node and you could potentially make periapts for each and ever Mage in your group, and then everyone has a quintessence pouch.
    I feel like a lot of rules in TTRPGs do have this aspect of...

    "X can make Y, a powerful object that can be used by anyone."

    "But what if X makes Y for lots of people!?"

    "Well I mean that would use up a lot of time and resources. Furthermore, they need an incentive to do so, and can possibly charge a great price for their work. And such items could be used against them, or against causes they care about, so they might be quite selective in who they make them for-"

    "I HAVE TO STOP THEM! I'm... I'm adding an EXP cost. And you need extra rare powers to do it."

    Leave a comment:

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