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Becoming invisible to Precognition

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  • Becoming invisible to Precognition

    Dune rather inspired me to try and figure this bit out. What spheres might one need to make ones self invisible to prophesies and various forms of precognition? I'm sure Entropy and Time would be needed but what else and what levels?

  • #2
    Standard Time shielding is not sufficient. Time 2 only blocks an scrying attempt. I would go for Time 2 with Mind 3. The Mind portion of the spell creating a “don't sense me“ effect.


    So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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    • #3
      You could also abuse an Arcane rating via Time. If someone had Arcane 5, then they would be difficult to sense via Precognition regardless. If you were to intensify this with Time by blocking attempts to scry you, you could be a shadow in the world.

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      • #4
        I’d say you could probably use Entropy 5 alone to escape the details of another mages premonitions. Though if you had Time 2 and Entropy 4, you could make an argument for making a time wars which also covers the complex array of events that would follow on from that event, thereby allowing you evasion from Entropy mediated detection.

        Entropy 4 with Prime could probably be used to dampen ones aura as well as any ties their avatar might have with the strings of fate.


        Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running FINALE: Chapter 39: Green Fairy

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        • #5
          Time 4 and Time 5 could have some kind of different / better time divination and scrying blocking / clouding and skewing, compared to what having Time 2 allows a Mage for currently. For a start :

          Time 4 Spells and Rotes could allow for selective clouding of some potential future outcomes and events.
          It could also allow for creation of prepared visions and divination skews that could affect time divination and scrying attempts - the time divination results could be changed, retouched and influenced slightly, or possibly greatly distorted and/or outright falsified.
          Time 5 Spells and Rotes could make the persons doing time divinations only see the final outcome ( or possible outcomes ) of ( for example ) an event at best, without being able to view or sense any details of the event whatsoever.
          Time 2 Spells and Rotes allow for an increase of dificulty of time divination and scrying attempts in general ; but using Time 2 in regards to those three possible new capabilities of Time 4 and Time 5 which I wrote above gives much worse - if any at all - results compared to using Time 4 and Time 5 Spells and Rotes to accomplish those feats.
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 06-05-2018, 02:29 PM.

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          • #6
            Thank you all for your ideas.. but I have to give a shout out to Muad'Dib because.. of the delicious irony here.

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            • #7
              You could employ a Time Ward locked on a personal object. If you want it to be permanent, making it a Wonder would be necessary. A travelling ward could follow you and thus protect you regardless of your position. To scry into the future, one would need to use correspondance 2 and time 2. What you need is to cancel that Effect. I think you could use Entropy to create false futures to lure your opponent.

              Also, to create a major ward to completely block the scrying, Correspondance 4 is needed (minor ward would just make the thing more difficult)

              If you want to prevent prophecies instead of scrying, Entropy 3 or 4 would be needed instead of Time with this solution I think.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
                You could employ a Time Ward locked on a personal object. If you want it to be permanent, making it a Wonder would be necessary. A travelling ward could follow you and thus protect you regardless of your position. To scry into the future, one would need to use correspondance 2 and time 2. What you need is to cancel that Effect. I think you could use Entropy to create false futures to lure your opponent.

                Also, to create a major ward to completely block the scrying, Correspondance 4 is needed (minor ward would just make the thing more difficult)

                If you want to prevent prophecies instead of scrying, Entropy 3 or 4 would be needed instead of Time with this solution I think.
                That would be a great plot point. A villain who is an invisible hand in destiny, thanks to a magical object which hides them from pre and post cognition.

                Perhaps something akin to Nocturnal's Grey Cowl? The object gives you an Arcane rating and gives resistance to Time/Entropy/Correspondence sense, but it also erodes your identity over time and stops you from leaving any marks, even when you really want to. A player might be put in a position where they know the Wonder will help them to stop something terrible, but realize that it comes at the cost of no one ever knowing what they had done, their friends and allies forgetting them.

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                • #9
                  I like using magical (hypertechnological) wonders in my plots. They're great material. They can move from hand to hand and constitute a weakness for both the players and the antagonists. They can be crafted or destroyed, cursed or altered. They can be an objective for the players and their ennemies too. You can do many things. Especially if your players are not masters and have few arete points, wonders are sources of great power and can perform miracles your players cannot achieve. They make the quests dangerous and extraordinary, even for Mages.

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                  • #10
                    Wow, there're so many ootions, but they're too difficult and require high-ranking Spheres.
                    What about just Time 2 for "Time walls" and Life 2 to lock it on yourself or Life 3 to lock on someone else? Or Matter 2/3 to create a small "t" talisman and make the effect more less permanent.

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                    • #11
                      For an NPC, you do not have to care about how he got the Talisman. Even with PC characters, it can be part of the scenario to find such an object (thus already existing) and not to craft it. "small talismans" can not have permanent effects. Locking effects into objects is never permanent if they're not Wonders. It's an exception to the 6+ successes rule for permanent effects (see table of successes in the core book). Permanent effects in objects fall unfer the rules of creation of Wonders. However you can create temporary Wonders with the same rules and a Prime 3 effect. Charms can actually be made since Prime 2 (with Tass of the appropriated resonance) but they're one shot wonders, so inadapted to your current need.

                      Of course feel free to use the Golden rule and make the rules what you want them to be. My opinion on this particular subject is that Wonders should not be easy to create. That said, they are great material for scenarii of various types, and it's not necessary to have some character craft it to use it in a scenario. The maker can actually have disappeared or could be dead for since centuries and the magical items could be a legacy of such a dead Mage.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MesmerOfLife View Post
                        Wow, there're so many ootions, but they're too difficult and require high-ranking Spheres.
                        What about just Time 2 for "Time walls" and Life 2 to lock it on yourself or Life 3 to lock on someone else?
                        The thing is, that would protect your character from being affected by Time effects (Being slowed down, tossed through time, being aged, etc.), but it would not stop somebody from casting their perceptions back in time to a place and just seeing you doing things - like somebody can already see you in the 'now' by standing nearby.

                        You will have to use the spheres you would normally use to hide yourself from detection in the 'now' ( Mind to be ignored etc.) and tie them to the Time sphere to make those protections only affect those people that look back in time, while those around you see you in a normal way.

                        Edit:
                        That said, it might be enough to use Time 2 + Mind 3 + Life 3 to create an according lock-in Effect on yourself. I'm however still unclear on what kinds of effects need what level of Life for locking them onto yourself or others. The books are a bit unclear.
                        Last edited by Ambrosia; 06-13-2018, 05:12 AM.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post

                          The thing is, that would protect your character from being affected by Time effects (Being slowed down, tossed through time, being aged, etc.), but it would not stop somebody from casting their perceptions back in time to a place and just seeing you doing things - like somebody can already see you in the 'now' by standing nearby.

                          You will have to use the spheres you would normally use to hide yourself from detection in the 'now' (Forces for invisibility, Mind to be ignored etc.) and tie them to the Time sphere to make those protections only affect those people that look back in time, while those around you see you in a normal way.

                          Edit:
                          That said, it might be enough to use Time 2 + Mind 3 (or Forces 2 for invisibility) + Life 3 to create an according lock-in Effect on yourself.
                          I agree. You can use Time 4 to prevent someone from spying on you before you have the Wonder. The remove yourself from the flow of Time or the Time Lock Effect still exist right at that rank?

                          Remark: I'm pretty sure locking the Effects on a living being is Life 4.

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                          • #14
                            Locking an effect on others is Life 4, on yourself Life 3 is sufficient.

                            Casting an effect that prevents the scrying mage (past or future) could be reasoned as Time 2 for sending the effect into the timestream and Mind 2+ for the “ignore me“ part. Arguments could be made for Time 3 or Time equal to the highest sphere rank in the cloaking effect.


                            So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                            • #15
                              How you want to protect yourself from being seen on timelines depends on how timelines are made. (Oh, sweet timelines !)
                              If it something that abstracts people using roles/classes/group memberships.. you may need mind/spirit (+time) to ward against that.
                              If it is a greek oracle feeling the fate of people, you may need entropy (+time) to ward against that.



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