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Real Technology vs the Technocracy/Traditions

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  • #31
    Giving sleepers the wonders of magic via devices seems to me at least to be a different thing than 'surpassing the spheres'. I mean sleepers can already drop nukes or fire explosive tank shells or kill people with drones...doesn't mean that mages focusing on Forces are rendered irrelevant. (Besides, even if direct damage output is surpassed there's a lot of exotic bullshit mage can pull out like probability manipulation, telepathy etc that its going to be a lot harder to surpass).

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Furoan View Post
      Giving sleepers the wonders of magic via devices seems to me at least to be a different thing than 'surpassing the spheres'. I mean sleepers can already drop nukes or fire explosive tank shells or kill people with drones...doesn't mean that mages focusing on Forces are rendered irrelevant. (Besides, even if direct damage output is surpassed there's a lot of exotic bullshit mage can pull out like probability manipulation, telepathy etc that its going to be a lot harder to surpass).

      Yes, of course, this had to be said.

      And I don't think direct damage it's surpassed either, at 70 or so aggravated to everything in the area (hard, but reachable) nothing can stand, you wouldn't notice the difference.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Furoan View Post
        Giving sleepers the wonders of magic via devices seems to me at least to be a different thing than 'surpassing the spheres'. I mean sleepers can already drop nukes or fire explosive tank shells or kill people with drones...doesn't mean that mages focusing on Forces are rendered irrelevant. (Besides, even if direct damage output is surpassed there's a lot of exotic bullshit mage can pull out like probability manipulation, telepathy etc that its going to be a lot harder to surpass).
        But for all we know technology will reach a point where telepathy and prediction of outcomes (and manipulating them) fall within the range of technology.

        Sure it seems absurd now, but a metal egg that can completely destabilize the environment and the politics of the whole world, while killing millions, seems patently ridiculous, as does a little rectangle that lets you speak with anyone in the world who has another one.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

          But for all we know technology will reach a point where telepathy and prediction of outcomes (and manipulating them) fall within the range of technology.
          I don't think this is possible at all in regards to telepathy, for it to be possible with technology available to be used by mundane humans - telepathy is a Mind 3 Effect, and thus definitely beyond what is possible for mundane humans to do.

          In regards to prediction of outcomes - the Time and Entropy magickal Effects that allow predictions are superior to such an extent to prediction methods used by mundane humans, that I don't think they can be compared at all.
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 06-29-2018, 01:17 PM.

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          • #35
            I don't think the Sphere levels necessary for an effect are particularly indicative of their innate cosmic difficulty.

            It takes three Masteries to make a new human, but Sleepers have managed it without coaching for quite a while.

            (If we use the historical era guidelines from the Book of Mirrors as a rubric, a new mythic age may have across-the-board drops in magical difficulties - so as the realm of the possible expands, the number of successes and scope of effects that mages can manage also makes some advances. There's likely no comparison between Sleepertech "telepathy" and a five or six success Mind effect, and having the former in the Consensus may make the latter easier to pull off.)
            Last edited by Five Eyes; 06-29-2018, 01:42 PM.


            I attack people with giant insects both on and off the court.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Five Eyes View Post
              It takes three Masteries to make a new human, but Sleepers have managed it without coaching for quite a while.
              As authors of MtAs are not very good at either technology or actual occult you should expect such oversights. I personally think that you need 3 Masteries to create a fully functional, pre-programmed human being with a soul on spot. Otherwise you just need 2 humans and 9 month time, plus ~17+ years for a finished product, no magic or technology required. Sleepers can currently influence genetic makeup of the product (shoddily), but artificial womb is still far away.
              If you want to produce 'Victors' - life 3, reproduction oriented sanctum and some patience is all you really need.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                But for all we know technology will reach a point where telepathy and prediction of outcomes (and manipulating them) fall within the range of technology.
                Arguably, telepathy is already possible, and has been for thousands of years. That is, if you define telepathy as "transferring ideas from your head to someone else's". Under that definition, we most certainly have that already, using a process that is at once simple to describe, yet complex as any science.

                It's call "Language".

                With but the use of arcane mouth sounds (with gestures and facial expressions thrown in for flavor), a person can transplant ideas into the minds of others. Of course, if you make the wrong mouth sounds at the wrong times, you'll end up scrambling the message you would send, or else implant a totally different idea than what you intended. Alternatively, those mouth sounds can make someone believe things that aren't true - even convince them to act directly against their own self-interest. And despite the old adage, these "words" can hurt people, even drive them to suicide.

                One step further, and you have writing. "Words that stay". They affix ideas into a state that can be absorbed by a person thousands of miles away and hundreds of years in the future; your little markings in clay or stains on a page can convince people of your world view long after you're dead.


                This little thought experiment illustrates a point I've been making for a while now: every mundane act that modern people take for granted was a form of True Magick, once upon a time. Creating fire, cutting with a flint knife, and speaking words were all ancient, primordial bits of Awakened power at first. Before humans around these primeval Mages were convinced of the efficacy of these methods, and adopted them. First as Paths of sorcery, then as powers classified as Abilities. Some, like Language, are assumed to be possessed by a character by default, and only require a single experience or freebie point to buy more of. The form of telepathy involving words is so ingrained into the Consensus, you can just DO IT.

                It extends to more modern things. What is Drive but a form of Path of Conveyance that hit the mainstream? What is Firearms, but the same thing, but with specialized Devices pioneered in the Sorcerer's Crusade? What is Computer but a technomagic way of interacting with an entire virtual landscape (like the Digital Web, which even sleepers can visit with VR tech and sufficient knowledge)?

                With tech, the chain goes True Magick > Wonder > Sorcery Path > Ability. The more the process is accepted, the more people adopt the Instruments of that process, until they aren't Instruments for magic anymore.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                  Arguably, telepathy is already possible, and has been for thousands of years. That is, if you define telepathy as "transferring ideas from your head to someone else's". Under that definition, we most certainly have that already, using a process that is at once simple to describe, yet complex as any science.

                  It's call "Language".

                  With but the use of arcane mouth sounds (with gestures and facial expressions thrown in for flavor), a person can transplant ideas into the minds of others. Of course, if you make the wrong mouth sounds at the wrong times, you'll end up scrambling the message you would send, or else implant a totally different idea than what you intended. Alternatively, those mouth sounds can make someone believe things that aren't true - even convince them to act directly against their own self-interest. And despite the old adage, these "words" can hurt people, even drive them to suicide.

                  One step further, and you have writing. "Words that stay". They affix ideas into a state that can be absorbed by a person thousands of miles away and hundreds of years in the future; your little markings in clay or stains on a page can convince people of your world view long after you're dead.


                  This little thought experiment illustrates a point I've been making for a while now: every mundane act that modern people take for granted was a form of True Magick, once upon a time. Creating fire, cutting with a flint knife, and speaking words were all ancient, primordial bits of Awakened power at first. Before humans around these primeval Mages were convinced of the efficacy of these methods, and adopted them. First as Paths of sorcery, then as powers classified as Abilities. Some, like Language, are assumed to be possessed by a character by default, and only require a single experience or freebie point to buy more of. The form of telepathy involving words is so ingrained into the Consensus, you can just DO IT.

                  It extends to more modern things. What is Drive but a form of Path of Conveyance that hit the mainstream? What is Firearms, but the same thing, but with specialized Devices pioneered in the Sorcerer's Crusade? What is Computer but a technomagic way of interacting with an entire virtual landscape (like the Digital Web, which even sleepers can visit with VR tech and sufficient knowledge)?

                  With tech, the chain goes True Magick > Wonder > Sorcery Path > Ability. The more the process is accepted, the more people adopt the Instruments of that process, until they aren't Instruments for magic anymore.
                  I was thinking along somewhat similar lines while going through this thread. While the Technocrats speak a big game about making devices that improve the lives of everyday people, I wonder if people don't also benefit in such ways from the Traditions. As in, if the masses ended up accepting the capabilities of magic according to like, the Hermetic paradigm (or any other really), we could have possibly ended up in a similar place. On the other hand, this also makes me think that the Traditions probably also have many of the same problems that the Technocracy has (namely tyranny over not just society, but reality itself).

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Houlio View Post

                    I was thinking along somewhat similar lines while going through this thread. While the Technocrats speak a big game about making devices that improve the lives of everyday people, I wonder if people don't also benefit in such ways from the Traditions. As in, if the masses ended up accepting the capabilities of magic according to like, the Hermetic paradigm (or any other really), we could have possibly ended up in a similar place. On the other hand, this also makes me think that the Traditions probably also have many of the same problems that the Technocracy has (namely tyranny over not just society, but reality itself).
                    I vaguely recall Brucato talking about the Mage's Fascist Urge in the M20 Book of Secrets. And how the very idea of having an exceptional person who can force their vision on reality inherently lends itself to autocratic thinking. Even if a mage doesn't want to be, their Awakened state makes it very easy to assume they know better.


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      I don't think it is possible to create what is called a quantum computer.
                      What do you mean? We're already making prototypes. The tech may Seem fantastical, but then, so did phones, cars, and planes at one point.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                        I vaguely recall Brucato talking about the Mage's Fascist Urge in the M20 Book of Secrets. And how the very idea of having an exceptional person who can force their vision on reality inherently lends itself to autocratic thinking. Even if a mage doesn't want to be, their Awakened state makes it very easy to assume they know better.
                        The only mass ascension which isn't inherently authoritarian is the kind where you simply create a world where people are able to seek their own personal gnosis more easily.

                        For example, a messianic figure might want to create a world of peace and prosperity, where people of different creeds and faiths and nationalities live in harmony. And in such a scenario, people could find their own personal truth unhindered by fear or oppression.

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